'Wings Over TalkHearts' Politics Thread

[shaun.lawson]

It's definitely something that's worth a look at.

There is so much inequality and hard working people aren't going to take getting utterly shafted like this much longer. If something radical doesn't happen there will be some sort of revolution soon enough. Probably why the government and all of the political class are pushing through the most extreme surveillance measures ever seen in the west.

There won't. What remains is the only way left for appalling leaders to get their peoples back behind their governments.

War.

[Zizou]

For real?

Just updated, you can

Things are looking up.

[PHOODLE-OUt]

That's a brilliant suggestion. A way for independent Scotland to dramatically pare down its welfare state (so meeting its EU requirements in time) and to take its public with it would be by becoming the first country to implement a basic minimum income. You should be writing policy for the SNP!

If the SNP offered to bung me an extra £800 a month they'd have my vote, who cares if they're destroying public services and making our children thick

[Cheeky Gnando’s]

Take it you just ignored what Begbie was getting at?

Showing an Independence those figures is meaningless. All you're showing is how much shit Scotland is in just now. A supporter of Independence doesn't look at that graph and think "fuck, you're right, we'll never make it alone" they think "see, that's where we are being part of the UK".

Different interpretation of the same data. Data that proves nothing.

It's only ever going to reinforce pre-existing views.

[pondlife]

No because I can tell how boring it is from here thanks

[Walter Sobchak]

The problem with all of these graphs etc is that the arguments are circular: "Scotland's finances are in the shit so independence would be a disaster" is always going to be countered with "the UK is a disaster for Scotland, which is why our finances are in the shit". With that graph, you're showing a battered wife how bad her life is with her husband as evidence she needs him.

Is there a graph for all the oil money that has been pissed away since the 70s?

[Mr A]

This handy graph shows the issue an independent Scotland would have in joining the EU.

Anyone want to speculate how we'd get down to the required levels for EU membership?

The problem with all of these graphs etc is that the arguments are circular: "Scotland's finances are in the shit so independence would be a disaster" is always going to be countered with "the UK is a disaster for Scotland, which is why our finances are in the shit". With that graph, you're showing a battered wife how bad her life is with her husband as evidence she needs him.

Take it you just ignored what Begbie was getting at?

Showing an Independence those figures is meaningless. All you're showing is how much shit Scotland is in just now. A supporter of Independence doesn't look at that graph and think "fuck, you're right, we'll never make it alone" they think "see, that's where we are being part of the UK".

Different interpretation of the same data. Data that proves nothing.

It's only ever going to reinforce pre-existing views.

Think you're both missing the point. Sure, pre-existing views are one thing and you can say that Scotland has been failed by the UK but what does that change in terms of where we go from here - and the decision that we will face if we get the second indyref.

As things stand we are leaving the EU as part of the UK. We are told (by the SNP, and I agree with them) that leaving such a big single market is bonkers. But what is being proposed by the SNP and Yes supporters is that we should also leave the UK.

If we want to get back into the EU as an independent nation we will not be allowed in based on our current finances. We would need substantial cuts in public expenditure to get the percentages down from 10% to 3% - as that graph (or data) shows. That is nothing to do with pre-existing views, or differing interpretations of data - that is just how things are.

That aside - if leaving the EU single market is bonkers - it is even more bonkers to leave the UK given that we do 4 times more trade with rUK than we do with the EU.

[Mr A]

Anyway - off to a pub quiz

[Fire Doinks]

I got what you were saying Mags, don't think you were point scoring.

I don't know anything about that deficit limit, how flexable would that be if Scotland was a net contributing rather than receiving member? Also, would being outside the Euro influence that decision as we weren't protected by the ECB in the way the high deficit european economies have been before with bailouts?

[2MatoFish]

Think you're both missing the point. Sure, pre-existing views are one thing and you can say that Scotland has been failed by the UK but what does that change in terms of where we go from here - and the decision that we will face if we get the second indyref.

As things stand we are leaving the EU as part of the UK. We are told (by the SNP, and I agree with them) that leaving such a big single market is bonkers. But what is being proposed by the SNP and Yes supporters is that we should also leave the UK.

If we want to get back into the EU as an independent nation we will not be allowed in based on our current finances. We would need substantial cuts in public expenditure to get the percentages down from 10% to 3% - as that graph (or data) shows. That is nothing to do with pre-existing views, or differing interpretations of data - that is just how things are.

That aside - if leaving the EU single market is bonkers - it is even more bonkers to leave the UK given that we do 4 times more trade with rUK than we do with the EU.

I just worry what the next irrevocable and masochistic act the rest of the UK is going to inflict upon itself is. Best to cut political ties rather than be dragged down.

[CritchSmile]

I genuinely thought Mags provided a good piece of evidence showing that Scotland under the union does not fit EU criteria. As 2na says, the quicker we cut political ties the better. Things could get even worse if we don't act.

[Walter Sobchak]

http://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/articles...89695?=kok

[PHOODLE-OUt]

http://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/articles...89695?=kok

Rekt

[2MatoFish]

http://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/articles...89695?=kok

Being right is no longer enough.

[Big Physical Acey]

http://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/articles...89695?=kok

A pleasing read.

[GeoffK1874]

The sneer in that piece aimed at a quarter of the population yet he wants to extend the franchise to 16 and 17 year olds who are obviously better educated.

[shaun.lawson]

The sneer in that piece aimed at a quarter of the population yet he wants to extend the franchise to 16 and 17 year olds who are obviously better educated.

The key dividing line for Leave/Remain and Trump/Clinton was... education. And even by the Tories' disgusting standards, it is reprehensible beyond imagination to gerrymander the franchise in such a way that 16 and 17 year olds have to live with the lifelong consequences of a decision they weren't even allowed to participate in.

Britain, like most of the Western world, has it arse over face. Old people count, young people don't. Young people - the future! - are left to clean up the ever-worsening mess created by old people who, when they were young and middle-aged, had many opportunities which young people are now denied. It's outrageous.

And as for the "sneer in that piece": it's called facts Geoff. The sneer comes from idiots who think opposing this decision is somehow anti-democratic - when it's the loudest proponents of it who, since June 23, have displayed every sign of wanting to deny discussion, accountability and above all, objective factual analysis of what Britain has just done.

[Fire Doinks]

That's because young people don't vote Shaun, of course it's cynical to pander to the old but they're the ones that actually turn out.

If young people want a better deal then they should turn out to vote and prove their concerns are worth hearing, sadly about half of us (maybe more) have never cared enough to do it once.



Also, the human sleeping pill Tim Farron on QT tonight...

[pondlife]

And they wonder why the gen public don't trust 'experts'/professionals

First point by AC Grayling says absolutely fuck all, that hasn't been said or acknowledged just more of but I don't like your rules.

AC's second point ... blad blah bladdy fucking blah (is he a professor at some sticklebrick uni?)

point 3 ... doesn't like the rules set up at the beginning. Fair enough if you pointed this all out before, whilst setting the rules, otherwise. boo hoo, buddy.

point 4 ... but the govt said they would act on it irrespective of experts and lawyers thinking otherwise. My word is my bond, AC. geddit.

Point 5 is nothing but one big with an accompanying


Anthony, those were my detailed comments.

[Zizou]