'Wings Over TalkHearts' Politics Thread

[Jeff Resnick]

Last Five Presidents and State Visits (if at all):

https://twitter.com/Emmabarnett/status/8...2172838912

Reagan - No State Visit (First Visit to UK: 17 Months)

Bush Snr - No State Visit (First Visit to UK: 4 Months)

Clinton - No State Visit (First Visit to UK: 17 Months)

Bush Jnr - 32 Months (First Visit to UK: 6 Months)

Obama - 28 Months (First Visit to UK: 2 Months)

Trump got his offer in 7 days...

[PHOODLE-OUt]

I'm guessing Brexit and trying to get to the front of the queue for trade details is the reason? Or is May just a weirdo?

[Kashinda]

Seems to follow the trend Jeff...

[CritchSmile]

If you're asking whether Boris and May acting the cunt to Europe has left the UK with no other option but to take it dry in the ass from an unhinged megalomaniac, then yes.

[Roger H. Sterling]

I'm guessing Brexit and trying to get to the front of the queue for trade details is the reason? Or is May just a weirdo?

100% that. We're trying to negotiate trade deals just as the most polarising president since Reagan is sworn in. Hardly our strongest position to put our foot down. Could do a bit more than rolling over and having your belly tickled like May has mind.

[Fire Doinks]

So so much has changed since the 2015 GE though. It's pretty clear what AP is getting at. May is navigating our ship through extremely stormy weather. I, along with many others, aren't very confident of her stewardship. Whilst technically we vote for a party in the GE, we also look at who's to be leading the country. If Corbyn can polarise the Labour party, May can polarise the country. Just accepting anyone who walks into the top job just because of the party you support is exactly the reason folk like Trump can get into power. Whilst most may have disagreed with Cameron's policies, he was still a relatively strong politician that you'd bank on representing the country at least with a little bit of confidence. This imposter May is an empty suit. She's there by default, is clearly out of her depth, and is making decisions that will affect the country for decades to come.

You're right in that there might not be an appetite for a GE, I mean, who'd beat the tories at this point anyway? But that doesn't mean everyone is content with our current PM and how she got to be in that position.

You're pushing an open door with me on any criticism of May, I have a very low opinion of her personally but I do have to accept the fact that her "There's a job that needs done, I'm getting on with it" stuff is actually working well as I speculated that it would when she was first announced. Whilst a lot of people didn't like her that much or want her as PM I think they're willing to accept that we don't need more upheaval right now.

May was the most senior figure with the broadest appeal, and as much as that might have annoyed me, I can understand why she won the party leadership. I don't think that would do anything to change enough Tory votes so a GE isn't really worth discussing outwith the "how badly would Labour do right now?" hypotheticals.

I know the point that people are making when they say "unelected", it's just not a very good one.

[2MatoFish]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-38801422?oc...e=facebook

Hard not to feel some sympathy for Sir Nicholas.

[shaun.lawson]

You're pushing an open door with me on any criticism of May, I have a very low opinion of her personally but I do have to accept the fact that her "There's a job that needs done, I'm getting on with it" stuff is actually working well as I speculated that it would when she was first announced. Whilst a lot of people didn't like her that much or want her as PM I think they're willing to accept that we don't need more upheaval right now.

Yes. On the "she's clearly well out of her depth" point others are making: 1) There's no evidence that she is; 2) It's not a view shared by anything like enough of the electorate; 3) If she is, who on Earth wouldn't be?

I don't like her, don't find her impressive, and her specialist subject appears to be the art of taking forever and ever to say nothing at all*. But she can only play the hand she's been dealt - and other than the opposition being in a state of total meltdown, the hand she's been dealt is shocking. Unplayable.

Keep party together (but the party want hard Brexit) / keep UK together (but Scotland wants no Brexit) / keep public happy (but the public want tough immigration controls) / keep economy ticking over (but the economy needs the banks) / keep pretending that we're something in the world when we are, in fact, nothing. So off we go, cap in hand, to the dictator Trump, the dictator Erdogan and other dictators before long - because by "taking back control", we've given up much more of it.

History may record that May's most important role was to ensure Britain ultimately didn't fall into the same fascist black hole as is engulfing the US and may (I increasingly suspect, will) shortly be about to engulf France. I think it's highly likely to record that no-one else could've done a better job - even when the job she's done has been so unimpressive. And that, I guess, is politics.

*an underrated quality  

[Drederick Shanktum]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-38801422?oc...e=facebook

Hard not to feel some sympathy for Sir Nicholas.

Big eck would have been raging his bit on the side was getting slated like that

[shaun.lawson]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-38801422?oc...e=facebook

Hard not to feel some sympathy for Sir Nicholas.

Cor, he hasn't half lost some weight! Half the man we used to know.



Sir Nicholas was once described by a former lover as "like being hit by a very large chest of drawers with a very small key".

[2MatoFish]

Ken Clarke in 'old man not giving a fucking and being honest' moment in parliament earlier on. Lots of people comparing it to Cook's effort on the eve of war with Iraq and, delivery aside, i'd echo that.

[Zizou]

Any links to it?

[2MatoFish]

Any links to it?

http://uk.businessinsider.com/ken-clarke...ant-2017-1

Calls the tory party "mildly anti-immigrant" which is, given he's a tory speaking in parliament, one of the most striking things you'll ever hear in politics. It's easier for an elder statesman to not give a fuck to that degree obviously.

Between the above, Major turning out to be a top shagger and Portillo coming across as a good egg when he's on telly talking about trains, all my notions of the tories from my childhood are crumbling.

[Jeff Resnick]

Quite enjoyed that.

Clarke will undoubtedly be labelled as an 'Enemy of the State' and be absolutely vilified in the likes of the Daily Heil after that.

[shaun.lawson]

Quite enjoyed that.

Clarke will undoubtedly be labelled as an 'Enemy of the State' and be absolutely vilified in the likes of the Daily Heil after that.

I think Ken Clarke should've joined the Liberal Democrats at least 15 years ago. It remains something of a mystery to me why he didn't.

[Jeff Resnick]

I think Ken Clarke should've joined the Liberal Democrats at least 15 years ago. It remains something of a mystery to me why he didn't.

He likes winning elections?

[shaun.lawson]

He likes winning elections?

Well yes, there is that - but what's he had in common with the Tory Party since 1997? Other than being a tobacco flogging fat cat, that is?

[Jeff Resnick]

Well yes, there is that - but what's he had in common with the Tory Party since 1997? Other than being a tobacco flogging fat cat, that is?

Mainly, as he said in the speech, he's still a Tory (as they were of course, not what they've become/becoming) at heart, and he couldnt see himself as anything else.

He's still holds dear the old Tories and, I guess, would like to think he still held some sway in pressuring them to stay that way, until very recently. The example he gives, of being a passionate Europhile, has been official Tory policy, for half a century, and until the day after the referendum. While many hark back to Thatcher and how great she was, they tend to forget that it was she who got concessions, rebates and wanted into the Single Market, as she saw it a way to gain trade, whilst boosting the economy (and no doubt exploit cheaper labour). I suspect Clarke isnt much different, as he looks wistfully to how it used to be.

I suspect he sees staying on those benches being as comfortable as his choice of footwear.

[shaun.lawson]

Mainly, as he said in the speech, he's still a Tory (as they were of course, not what they've become/becoming) at heart, and he couldnt see himself as anything else.

He's still holds dear the old Tories and, I guess, would like to think he still held some sway in pressuring them to stay that way, until very recently. The example he gives, of being a passionate Europhile, has been official Tory policy, for half a century, and until the day after the referendum. While many hark back to Thatcher and how great she was, they tend to forget that it was she who got concessions, rebates and wanted into the Single Market, as she saw it a way to gain trade, whilst boosting the economy (and no doubt exploit cheaper labour). I suspect Clarke isnt much different, as he looks wistfully to how it used to be.

I suspect he sees staying on those benches being as comfortable as his choice of footwear.

All true of course - with the important caveats that:

1. One Nation Tories ceased to play an important part in the party after 1997. Cameron seemed like he was going to change this, then didn't.

2. Since Maastricht, when has a Tory leader ever said anything truly positive about Europe? Even Cameron didn't - which as Clarke alluded to in his speech, was rather his and the Remain campaign's downfall.

It wasn't always like this, as you rightly say. Thatcher herself was tugged back by Europhiles in her Cabinet, and fell when she'd upset too many of them; Major could only remain in power by depending on 'big beasts' like Clarke and Michael Heseltine. The Parliamentary Tory Party, meanwhile, remained well to the left of the Tory grassroots more or less between 1945 and 1997 - but not any longer.

John Bercow, incidentally, who I met in 2005 (well before he became Speaker) does an absolutely spot on impersonation of Clarke. Who's always been a much loved character.

[PHOODLE-OUt]

First the SNP, then Trump, now the Tories

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-38816692?ns...ws_central