Talk Hearts Daily News Thread

[Del-icious]

I don't think anyone should have the right to revoke someones citizenship on a technicality, then basically force them on 2 other countries whether they like or not. I'm not saying anyone on here thinks this, but i think a lot of people are daft enough to believe that we're at war with Syria, rather than fighting a group of people who Syria are also at war with. If she genuinely is an extreme threat (which i'm not arguing she's not) why are we not taking responsibility for her rather than leaving that extreme threat with the only option to go to Bangladesh or stay in Syria?

Are we saying Syrian and Bangladeshi people are less deserving to live in safety and peace?

I think it's a fucking joke and the blatant racism displayed by a significant portion of the public regarding it is embarrassing.

Britain's attitude to Syria is terrible, bomb fuck out them, deny them refuge when they flee the warzone that we're helping to create and then take no responsibility for the Brits that go over to cause/support even more terror and destruction.

[Walter Sobchak]

Be interested to hear the thoughts on a 19 year old guy who left at 15 to join Daesh wanting to come back, and whether we would be hearing he had been groomed etc.

That aside, I think this a retrograde, populist step. If she had come back, she would have been prosecuted, and the baby, who is a british citizen, could have been put into a foster home and given a chance in life, which it now won't have. Prosecution, I saw somewhere that the sentence could be around 10 years, plus perhaps an extended period on license and supervision, and time to try to reverse the brainwashing. She could have been monitored and it would show humanity and compassion. The change in the law regarding citizenship was pretty recent, and to me it is just a measure designed to appeal to angry gammon and the red tops.

Additionally, she has a right of appeal to the SIAC. Will be quite the riddie for the UK if she wins her appeal.

Quite apart form that we now have an ex ISIS bride, who will have even more reason to hate Britain, currently cutting about Syria, and possibly going to Bangladesh, where she will not be monitored much, if at all.

One part of the argument I think is pushing it is, she is Britain's problem, we created her and we should take her back because of that, when really although she grew up here, the reality is she is Daesh's problem, they created her. The stronger part of that argument is the flip side, she's not Bangladesh's problem, yet we are content to dump our detritus on them...

[Del-icious]

She's had two kids die before she's 20. She left the UK at 15 with friends and was married off and knocked up weeks later, it's not as if she was firing off RPGs at are brave boyz.

She needs psychiatric help in the UK: bringing her back is the only way to get her that, ergo it's the only chance she has to become normalised again. Leaving her mentally ill with an axe to grind, surrounded by sympathetic ears, is not the way to deal with this. Leaving her as a martyr is not the way to deal with people who feel we are their enemy, whether they're in the UK or abroad.  

Will say once more: she's only 19, and she did what she did when she was 15.  She's still a teenager, and we're revoking her citizenship for something she did when she was a minor. It's not right.

There's also this entire argument that seems to just get pied completely.

She might be 19 now but at what point between joining ISIS at 15 and now was she ever going to have her mind changed about the whole thing? She lived in Raqqa ffs.

[Mr A]

She's had two kids die before she's 20. She left the UK at 15 with friends and was married off and knocked up weeks later, it's not as if she was firing off RPGs at are brave boyz.

She needs psychiatric help in the UK: bringing her back is the only way to get her that, ergo it's the only chance she has to become normalised again. Leaving her mentally ill with an axe to grind, surrounded by sympathetic ears, is not the way to deal with this. Leaving her as a martyr is not the way to deal with people who feel we are their enemy, whether they're in the UK or abroad.  

Will say once more: she's only 19, and she did what she did when she was 15.  She's still a teenager, and we're revoking her citizenship for something she did when she was a minor. It's not right.

She isn't seeking psychiatric help though. Her views will be shared by a not insignificant group of people across the UK i.e that terror atrocities in the UK are justified.

Was she groomed? Maybe. No different to other teenagers in the UK who are enticed into joining gangs by older men with a view to exploit them.

[Sarkozabal]

Morph and Neave saw the video where she came across like a wee girl, so now they want to create a system where people can spend years in terrorist groups but just come back if they decide they've changed their minds

[Del-icious]

I'm sure a lot of these kids that get into gangs will have dual nationality. If it's no different lets revoke their citizenship and send them off to wherever their grandparents or parents came from.

For a very intelligent guy Mags i swear to god.

[Del-icious]

Morph and Neave saw the video where she came across like a wee girl, so now they want to create a system where people can spend years in terrorist groups but just come back if they decide they've changed their minds

Aye that's exactly what i'm saying.

Not sure what videos you've seen either as every video i've seen from her she comes across as a hateful little cunt. Didn't get the ''wee hard done by girl'' thing at all.

[Herzog]

Get her to fuck. She will be surrounded by people who share these views in prison and the rest of her life. She will no doubt have squirted out many more bairns and "groomed" them.

I'm very happy with the UK government in this. Sending a proper message to these cunts.

[Nive la France]

Morph and Neave saw the video where she came across like a wee girl, so now they want to create a system where people can spend years in terrorist groups but just come back if they decide they've changed their minds

I like how Sarkozy thinks ISIS is an equal opportunities employer, lads and lassies side-by-side in the trenches. The male:female pay gap must be non-existent

It's also a wonder how she managed to have 3 kids in 4 years while being on the front-line.

[Zizou]

Can see both sides of the argument here. Even if she did go to prison for 10 years, how could you ever trust her when released? It does feel like a decision that plays up to the gammons though.

Won't be shedding a tear like. Shame for the child.

[Del-icious]

Can see both sides of the argument here. Even if she did go to prison for 10 years, how could you ever trust her when released? It does feel like a decision that plays up to the gammons though.

Won't be shedding a tear like. Shame for the child.

You go through the entire process like anyone else to judge if you're still a threat to the public.  She wouldn't be the first extremist to be jailed in Britain surely?

[2MatoFish]

Get her to fuck. She will be surrounded by people who share these views in prison and the rest of her life. She will no doubt have squirted out many more bairns and "groomed" them.

I'm very happy with the UK government in this. Sending a proper message to these cunts.

I wonder what message the UK government is sending to young, disenfranchised British muslims.

[Mr A]

I'm sure a lot of these kids that get into gangs will have dual nationality.  If it's no different lets revoke their citizenship and send them off to wherever their grandparents or parents came from.

For a very intelligent guy Mags i swear to god.

What's the issue here? I was responding to Neave who was saying she was groomed and needed mental help. I don't think that if she was groomed that process is any different to teenagers who are enticed to join gangs over here.

She went to Syria to help ISIS build a state. She wants to destroy the UK. She thinks terror attacks in the UK are justified.

FWIW I think revoking her citizenship was the wrong move. We should have her and her kid back here and she should be put on trial for the crimes (if any) she has committed.

But I don't feel sorry for her. She is a wee shite. I will lose no sleep over her having her citizenship revoked.

I am not sure if we are now officially feuding. Plz let me know.

[Walter Sobchak]

I'm sure a lot of these kids that get into gangs will have dual nationality.  If it's no different lets revoke their citizenship and send them off to wherever their grandparents or parents came from.

For a very intelligent guy Mags i swear to god.

Yea that's actually what the tories want to do and why they brought in the change to the law. They also have some operations where they can refuse visa extensions or try to revoke status based solely on associations. Of course they don't really try it with associates of murderous regimes, or Russians trying to pervert our electoral system but who donate to the coffers of the tory party), but do try it with poor people who the police don't like.

[CritchSmile]

Some thick cunts on here.

[Steven Toast]

This is a weird one. The logical side of me agrees that she should probably have been allowed back to go through the criminal justice system. The emotional side wants the vile little cunt to rot in the shit her and cronies helped create.

If she'd shown genuine remorse, I think there would be more support for her return but she's truly a hateful piece of shit.

[Shuto Makino]

A few points stick out to me about this case. Not going to spend ages debating it as honestly I spend most of my days reading/writing about similar issues and post on here for a wee break, but some fairly disorganised thoughts (given that I haven't actually paid a great deal of attention to this specific case):

- For me the most worrying thing here is the way in which it seems to validate the idea that we have two-tier citizenship: citizenship can effectively be revoked under certain circumstances, but only when you commit certain forms of crime associated in the popular imagination with certain communities. If a guy called Colin, whose parents were American or Australian, went to Vietnam and beasted loads of kids would we be discussing the removal of citizenship? Of course we wouldn't - regardless of how heinous those crimes were, we'd be judging them in the U.K. The signal being sent here is that citizenship is conditional - but only if you're a brown person committing brown people crimes. This gives legal backing to the idea that, no matter where you were born or what it says on your passport, you don't really belong in the U.K. if you come from a minority ethnic/Muslim cultural background - or at least that your belonging is conditional in good behaviour in a way that it isn't for the majority of the population.

- Like I said, I haven't paid a great deal of attention to the specifics of this case, but my understanding is that the possibility of effectively revoking her citizenship has been floated on the basis of her having Bangladeshi nationality. Is Bangladesh supposed to be desperate for British Jihadis or something? I guess the argument here would be that if the U.K. and Bangladesh both refuse to accept her she'd de facto have to stay where she is, but, without being a legal expert, that seems like it'd be iffy?

- The idea that jihadis, male or female, can simplistically be described as having been 'brainwashed' is actually largely rejected within terrorist studies. It's essentially something that families tell themselves because it gives them comfort to think that what their child is doing isn't really a representation of 'who they really are', but there's no real evidence for brainwashing being a thing. These are people with agency, who form beliefs and make choices based upon them, even if they do so while very young. They should be held as accountable for those choices as anyone else.

- For me, the argument about her being a young girl isn't really relevant. If she was a 45 year-old man, we should still take her back into the country.

- Some of the coverage I've seen of this seems to suggest that she'd present a risk of attack if we were to allow her back into the U.K., but typically that isn't the case with female jihadis. It can be, but without knowing the specifics of this case, most female jihadis who leave for Syria do so in the knowledge that they won't be involved in active combat - their motivations for going to Syria are fundamentally different from those of male jihadis and tend to involve an idealised vision of family life, returning to an 'essence of femininity' in an Islamist utopia. That's not to say that she as an individual wouldn't present a threat of attack, but that it shouldn't be simplistically assumed and is actually very likely not to be the case (the same would even be true of a battle-hardened male jihadi - often those who left for Syria did so with the impression that they'd be taking part in Holy War, but wouldn't be comfortable with attacks on civilian targets in the UK even if they see them as infidels).

- An even more important point here is her child. There are issues surrounding the children of jihadis, especially older ones, and the ways in which they're surrounded by jihadi propaganda from a young age and often even given military training from a young age - there's a not entirely unfounded fear that, in some cases, these people could be ticking time bombs (that's not intended as a bad taste pun). Having said that, they're children: getting them out of their situation and trying to rehabilitate them seems, to me, like just the obviously morally right thing to do.

I don't think you need to feel any particular sympathy for her as an individual to feel that, as a U.K. citizen, she should be held accountable for her actions by the U.K. courts.

[Del-icious]

What's the issue here? I was responding to Neave who was saying she was groomed and needed mental help. I don't think that if she was groomed that process is any different to teenagers who are enticed to join gangs over here.

She went to Syria to help ISIS build a state. She wants to destroy the UK. She thinks terror attacks in the UK are justified.

FWIW I think revoking her citizenship was the wrong move. We should have her and her kid back here and she should be put on trial for the crimes (if any) she has committed.

But I don't feel sorry for her. She is a wee shite. I will lose no sleep over her having her citizenship revoked.  

I am not sure if we are now officially feuding. Plz let me know.

I still think that attitude is very narrow minded tbh. We're not feuding, we are just discussing

The problem with your attitude is all the criticism seems to be directed towards the individual. I agree with you in this instance and I struggle to look at her and feel any sympathy but there is a larger problem here regarding the grooming aspect. From your post i basically got that folk who end up on the streets, groomed by older teenagers or adults and persuaded into crime don't deserve to have their circumstances taken into consideration.

There are far wider issues of things like poverty and lack of opportunities or jobs in certain areas that make it very easy for these kids to turn to crime. In this lassies case she would have had religious pressure growing up and at a very impressionable point of her life has been brainwashed by people who spend their lives grooming young people to join terrorist groups. I suppose i misread the point of your post but at the same time i still disagree massively that these people who are groomed and go on to commit terrible crimes don't deserve to have their circumstances taken into consideration. It's possibly hypocritical for me to say now that i struggle to find sympathy for her, but this lassie has been failed by so many people as a child and this is what we need to be focusing our energy on putting an end to.

I can sort of relate tbh, when i was about 15/16 i seen how everyone was seething at eastern europeans stealing our jobs which was reinforced by my parents views. My mum was made redundant and went in quite a lot blaming Polish people. I got really interested in the BNP/National front without properly knowing what it was all about. Luckily i had my parents there to tell me i was being an arsehole, but if i had went a bit further and these cunts had latched on to me I could've been drawn completely in and been one of these arseholes i detest now.

[Shteve]

Fuck her.

[Herzog]

Imagine the shit storm if after their holiday prison sentence, one of them or their associates detonated themselves inside Tynecastle. Mothy aside, the fallout would be unbelievable.


If all the people that left to go fight in Syria knew they could lose citizenship, i wonder how many would have changed their minds?