(01-04-2016, 10:35 PM)Timothy Dalton Wrote: Barca are a far, far better oiled football machine than Real.

Ajax plus money = Barcelona. No idea how any club competes with that system over the long term.

Barca spend shit loads of money. Shaun like every one else it seems is blinkered to this fact. You'd think it was 11laddies who grew up in the shadow of the nou camp.

(01-04-2016, 11:20 PM)Drederick Tatum Wrote: Barca spend shit loads of money. Shaun like every one else it seems is blinkered to this fact. You'd think it was 11laddies who grew up in the shadow of the nou camp.

See my post above. Ajax plus money = Barcelona.

Where on earth has anyone said that?

Not in the post directly above yours where Shaun literally points out their huge financial power, that's for sure.

Any club that can spend hundreds of millions while banned from making transfers will always do well.

(01-04-2016, 11:53 PM)Alan Partridge Wrote: Any club that can spend hundreds of millions while banned from making transfers will always do well.

Ha, yes. They do seem untouchable off the pitch too for whatever reason.

And while sure, the money they spent on Suarez and Neymar is a huge reason why they've kicked on, I'm still fascinated by how seamless it's been. Midway through 2012/13, while the world simply saw Barca romping away with yet another La Liga title, a good friend of mine with connections to the club told me they were fighting fires every day, and it was all about to come crashing down around everyone's ears. Cue, within months:

1. Barcelona 0-7 Bayern Munich on aggregate

2. Vilanova leaves through ill health (poor Tito )

3. Sandro Rosell/Neymar scandal

4. Transfer ban

Yet here they are, straight back at the top, having changed their style of play to something much more dynamic and vibrant, and in 2015, they scored more goals than any other club in a calendar year in history.

So sure, I get why it sticks in people's craws (not that Madrid have a leg to stand on if they complain about the power of another club). It's still ridiculously impressive though.

(01-05-2016, 12:04 AM)shaun.lawson Wrote: Ha, yes. They do seem untouchable off the pitch too for whatever reason.

And while sure, the money they spent on Suarez and Neymar is a huge reason why they've kicked on, I'm still fascinated by how seamless it's been. Midway through 2012/13, while the world simply saw Barca romping away with yet another La Liga title, a good friend of mine with connections to the club told me they were fighting fires every day, and it was all about to come crashing down around everyone's ears. Cue, within months:

1. Barcelona 0-7 Bayern Munich on aggregate

2. Vilanova leaves through ill health (poor Tito )

3. Sandro Rosell/Neymar scandal

4. Transfer ban

Yet here they are, straight back at the top, having changed their style of play to something much more dynamic and vibrant, and in 2015, they scored more goals than any other club in a calendar year in history.

So sure, I get why it sticks in people's craws (not that Madrid have a leg to stand on if they complain about the power of another club). It's still ridiculously impressive though.

I much prefer this Enrique side to that Guardiola side. A far more complete football team for me.

Helps when you've got Suarez and Neymar on fire mind you.

About 160million worth of talent which they bought, yet it's Real who get the tag as galacticos and being the ones who only ever spend money. It's like folk who said fergie did it on what amounted to a shoestring.

(01-05-2016, 12:11 AM)Alan Partridge Wrote: I much prefer this Enrique side to that Guardiola side. A far more complete football team for me.

Helps when you've got Suarez and Neymar on fire mind you.

This side reminds me a lot of the 1992 Dream Team, the first Barca side to win the European Cup. That was the second European Cup Final I'd ever seen (GA will remember it for sadly different reasons); Barca had all these fabulous individuals strutting their stuff under chain-smoking Johan Cruyff. Zubizaretta (who I bet Franko remembers well) in goal; Koeman sweeping up at the back and winning the match with a bullet of a free kick; Pep as holding midfielder; Laudrup and the magnificently moody Stoichkov further forward.

But - like this team - it wasn't flawless. It wasn't some impossible to beat machine. It was far more human than the 2009-11 side. When Guardiola's side's play narrowed, they were like some footballing version of knitting. Passing it around from side to side like a woman frantically packing and re-packing an overnight bag. Not now; it's far more satisfying to watch.

(01-05-2016, 12:12 AM)Drederick Tatum Wrote: About 160million worth of talent which they bought, yet it's Real who get the tag as galacticos and being the ones who only ever spend money. It's like folk who said fergie did it on what amounted to a shoestring.

A few things:

1. Real Madrid, Manchester City and Chelsea all get slagged off because, no matter how much they spend, the first two can't build a proper club or a proper team; while Chelsea play football like the Death Star. Sure, they win things - but long term dominance requires much, much more. In that Barca '92 side were both Guardiola and Txiki Begiristain, who went on to become their Sporting Director and is now at City. Maintaining those links from past to present is what Bayern Munich also do brilliantly - and is where hope lies in Zidane getting the Madrid job now.

2. Madrid get the tag as galacticos because of who their President is. The man who, by way of reminder, fired Del Bosque after winning two titles and two Champions Leagues because he wasn't high profile enough; rejected Ronaldinho because he was ugly; sold Makelele because he wasn't a star; and insisted on Madrid having a Hollywood XI and picking all their stars every single week. Whereupon, to no-one's surprise, they collapsed in a heap at the end of 2003/4, and have been playing catch-up to Barca almost ever since.

They have the most ridiculously spoilt, ungrateful fans on planet Earth: who instead of exalting the side who won La Decima, turned against it in fury last season for no apparent reason, and chase manager after manager after manager out of the club. In other words, when it comes to long term planning, Madrid's own supporters are a huge impediment. By contrast, Barca, who used to have a very similar problem (a total shambles between 1999 and 2004), have learnt from the past and their fans understand it's a long term approach.

3. Yes, Ferguson spent plenty - but he was also up against two oligarchy clubs who, back in the days before Financial Fair Play (which seems to be being respected more in England than Europe now), had a bottomless pit available to them. That he still managed to catch and pass Chelsea in 2007 and 2008, run City to a standstill in 2012, and win the league by a street in 2013 despite a declining side and appalling owners only capped his greatness.

How great was Sir Alex Ferguson? Look at Manchester United since he left. There's your answer.

Barcelona during 2009-2011 was the best team of all time, imo.

Wouldn't say they were the best for entertainment but the most effective and hardest to beat team there has ever been.

(01-05-2016, 02:04 AM)Mikey Wrote: Barcelona during 2009-2011 was the best team of all time, imo.

Wouldn't say they were the best for entertainment but the most effective and hardest to beat team there has ever been.

This. Virtually unbeatable. Contrary to what has been said about entertaining I felt they were the ultimate entertainers through their sheer domination and mastery of the ball/movement. Totally took the piss out of the best teams around. Couldn't get enough of that team.

Besides Messi, Alves might just be my favourite player in this current team; before that Abidal - criminally underrated, what he brought to the success of that team.

(01-05-2016, 12:50 AM)shaun.lawson Wrote: This side reminds me a lot of the 1992 Dream Team, the first Barca side to win the European Cup. That was the second European Cup Final I'd ever seen (GA will remember it for sadly different reasons); Barca had all these fabulous individuals strutting their stuff under chain-smoking Johan Cruyff. Zubizaretta (who I bet Franko remembers well) in goal; Koeman sweeping up at the back and winning the match with a bullet of a free kick; Pep as holding midfielder; Laudrup and the magnificently moody Stoichkov further forward.

But - like this team - it wasn't flawless. It wasn't some impossible to beat machine. It was far more human than the 2009-11 side. When Guardiola's side's play narrowed, they were like some footballing version of knitting. Passing it around from side to side like a woman frantically packing and re-packing an overnight bag. Not now; it's far more satisfying to watch.


A few things:

1. Real Madrid, Manchester City and Chelsea all get slagged off because, no matter how much they spend, the first two can't build a proper club or a proper team; while Chelsea play football like the Death Star. Sure, they win things - but long term dominance requires much, much more. In that Barca '92 side were both Guardiola and Txiki Begiristain, who went on to become their Sporting Director and is now at City. Maintaining those links from past to present is what Bayern Munich also do brilliantly - and is where hope lies in Zidane getting the Madrid job now.

2. Madrid get the tag as galacticos because of who their President is. The man who, by way of reminder, fired Del Bosque after winning two titles and two Champions Leagues because he wasn't high profile enough; rejected Ronaldinho because he was ugly; sold Makelele because he wasn't a star; and insisted on Madrid having a Hollywood XI and picking all their stars every single week. Whereupon, to no-one's surprise, they collapsed in a heap at the end of 2003/4, and have been playing catch-up to Barca almost ever since.

They have the most ridiculously spoilt, ungrateful fans on planet Earth: who instead of exalting the side who won La Decima, turned against it in fury last season for no apparent reason, and chase manager after manager after manager out of the club. In other words, when it comes to long term planning, Madrid's own supporters are a huge impediment. By contrast, Barca, who used to have a very similar problem (a total shambles between 1999 and 2004), have learnt from the past and their fans understand it's a long term approach.

3. Yes, Ferguson spent plenty - but he was also up against two oligarchy clubs who, back in the days before Financial Fair Play (which seems to be being respected more in England than Europe now), had a bottomless pit available to them. That he still managed to catch and pass Chelsea in 2007 and 2008, run City to a standstill in 2012, and win the league by a street in 2013 despite a declining side and appalling owners only capped his greatness.

How great was Sir Alex Ferguson? Look at Manchester United since he left. There's your answer.

To be honest Shaun, I pretty much think that's a lot of romantic pish.

(01-05-2016, 07:31 AM)Drederick Tatum Wrote: To be honest Shaun, I pretty much think that's a lot of romantic pish.

Translation: you don't have a response to any of it.

(01-05-2016, 02:04 AM)Mikey Wrote: Barcelona during 2009-2011 was the best team of all time, imo.

Wouldn't say they were the best for entertainment but the most effective and hardest to beat team there has ever been.

1940s Torino still win that for me, though Barca 2009-11 would get in the top five. If, alternatively, we take the perfectly valid Acey position that latter day teams must be better because their players are that much fitter etc, then sure, Barca 2009-11 it would be.

(01-05-2016, 08:18 AM)shaun.lawson Wrote: 1940s Torino still win that for me

'My favourite Hearts player ever is Bobby Walker'.

(01-05-2016, 08:19 AM)Makween Wrote: 'My favourite Hearts player ever is Bobby Walker'.

Bobby Walker never gave me my greatest moment on Kickback though - unlike 1940s Torino. (It was when I called Bunter a window licker).

I remember Bunter's Torino thing

Was it not something to do with how amazing the Busby team was, and that you can't judge a Torino team from the 1940's, even though Superga was about a decade before the Munich disaster?

http://www.hmfckickback.co.uk/index.php?...nho/page-2

Good football chat, robust language, informative and entertaining.

JKB 2012

The Forty Greatest Club Sides Of All Time

1. Torino 1942-9

2. Real Madrid 1955-60

3. Barcelona 2008-11

4. Ajax Amsterdam 1970-3

5. AC Milan 1987-90

6. Bayern Munich 1973-6

7. Internazionale 1962-5

8. Benfica 1959-62

9. AC Milan 1991-4

10. Real Madrid 2000-3

11. Liverpool 1975-8

12. Manchester United 1955-8

13. Juventus 1994-8

14. Nottingham Forest 1977-80

15. Internazionale 2009/10

16. Bayern Munich 2012/13

17. Ajax Amsterdam 1994/5

18. Manchester United 1998/9

19. Celtic 1966/7

20. Arsenal 2003/4

21. Olympique de Marseille 1988-93

22. Tottenham Hotspur 1960/1

23. Barcelona 2014/15

24. Manchester United 2006-8

25. Barcelona 2004-6

26. Chelsea 2004-7

27. Liverpool 1987/8

28. Internazionale 1988/9

29. FC Porto 2002-4

30. Napoli 1986-90

31. Feyenoord 1968-70

32. Barcelona 1991-4

33. AC Milan 2002-7

34. Bayern Munich 1998-2001

35. Borussia Moenchengladbach 1974-7

36. Everton 1984-7

37. Sampdoria 1990/1

38. Juventus 2011/2

39. Valencia 1999-2004

40. Lazio 1998-2000