The two posts above are everything that is wrong with political discourse in this country.

(12-10-2017, 08:55 AM)Fire Doinks Wrote: The two posts above are everything that is wrong with political discourse in this country.

Not really.

My post is just showing up a poster for using a headline to try to back up his twisted views towards race and not reading the article.

It's a moron making a fool of himself to try and prove how his racist view is right.

Yes really. You selected all of one paragraph that supported your view which is, as far as I can tell, the dismissal of his view. You yourself didn't bother to read any further down the article or you would not have knowingly posted it.

You're just as ignorant as It's Shit but you come with a sanctimonious smugness that's somehow even more irritating than his blatant bait.

The headline is obviously geared towards a view that was horrifically overlooked by the British public for many years, however the research conducted by the Quilliam Foundation is very likely to be solid, so it's unlikely to be inaccurate.

Instead of looking at what was actually posted you just jumped on the first thing that you thought disproved what the previous poster said, without looking at the detail. You are fake news, but this neggy is real.

(12-10-2017, 08:55 AM)Fire Doinks Wrote: The two posts above are everything that is wrong with political discourse in this country.

To be fair, that was my instant reaction too. Then I thought a bit harder about it. If for the sake of argument, 100% of paedophiles are white, and the vast majority of grooming gangs are Asian, how in the world can we focus on one group, but not the other? It just shows there's sick white bastards, and sick Asian bastards.

(12-10-2017, 09:14 AM)shaun.lawson Wrote: To be fair, that was my instant reaction too. Then I thought a bit harder about it. If for the sake of argument, 100% of paedophiles are white, and the vast majority of grooming gangs are Asian, how in the world can we focus on one group, but not the other? It just shows there's sick white bastards, and sick Asian bastards.

Because Frank's response is everything that is wrong about this discussion. Rather than acknowledging that grooming gangs exist he decided to post a statistic that "proves" there are no Asian paedophiles. This only serves to infuriate those who are aware of their existence and pours gas on the arguments of radical right-wing racial separatists. I honestly can't understand how people still don't get that their casual equally ill informed "combating racism" is making things worse.

If you listen to our parents, paedophiles didn't even exist 30-40 years ago outside Ian Brady. Now we've accepted that a portion of our society has a sexual interest in children, but we still aren't ready to accept the reasons why groups of men from immigrant communities target vulnerable young women. I think that article has it right, they view them as worthless as dogs and are therefore worthy of the same treatment and are deserving of exploitation for the sexual gratification of others.

This is both a cultural and religious phenomenon, in the same way that 'Type 2' paedophilia is not. It's something our authorities avoided for years for fear of causing "racial disharmony". I don't blame people for being pissed off about this.

(12-10-2017, 09:14 AM)shaun.lawson Wrote: To be fair, that was my instant reaction too. Then I thought a bit harder about it. If for the sake of argument, 100% of paedophiles are white, and the vast majority of grooming gangs are Asian, how in the world can we focus on one group, but not the other? It just shows there's sick white bastards, and sick Asian bastards.

It's not a racial thing because all races can be as bad as each other.

Not all paedophiles are white and not all those involved in grooming gangs are Asian.

(12-10-2017, 09:24 AM)Fire Doinks Wrote: Because Frank's response is everything that is wrong about this discussion. Rather than acknowledging that grooming gangs exist he decided to post a statistic that "proves" there are no Asian paedophiles.

Wrong. Take this neggy.

At no point did I ever refuse to acknowledge grooming gangs and that paragraph doesn't prove anything about Asian paedophiles.

Don't know where you got that.

(12-10-2017, 09:27 AM)Frank Underwood Wrote: not all those involved in grooming gangs are Asian.

While not factually incorrect this statement is statistically misleading as evidenced by the article previously linked that you failed to read.

(12-10-2017, 09:30 AM)Frank Underwood Wrote: Wrong. Take this neggy.

At no point did I ever refuse to acknowledge grooming gangs and that paragraph doesn't prove that there aren't an Asian paedophiles.

Don't know where you got that.

Na, you just thought that a stripped quote and a rollseyes was better than the informative and thought through point that you're defiantly capable of making.  

(12-10-2017, 09:33 AM)Fire Doinks Wrote: Na, you just thought that a stripped quote and a rollseyes was better than the informative and thought through point that you're defiantly capable of making.  

It's not worthy of entering into a debate with it's shit on this sort of stuff.

It's not really a thought provoking point tbh - 'both can be as bad as each other'.

I actually agree with your point to an extent, but I don't think that was the point Shit was making.

I've never understood this idea that the left defend Asian beasts. Are we not meant to be snow flakes horrified by anything?

Can't be denied there is a cultural problem there but it seems to be British Muslims so ou can't really send them back or whatever point it is your trying to make.

(12-10-2017, 09:24 AM)Fire Doinks Wrote: Because Frank's response is everything that is wrong about this discussion. Rather than acknowledging that grooming gangs exist he decided to post a statistic that "proves" there are no Asian paedophiles. This only serves to infuriate those who are aware of their existence and pours gas on the arguments of radical right-wing racial separatists. I honestly can't understand how people still don't get that their casual equally ill informed "combating racism" is making things worse.

If you listen to our parents, paedophiles didn't even exist 30-40 years ago outside Ian Brady. Now we've accepted that a portion of our society has a sexual interest in children, but we still aren't ready to accept the reasons why groups of men from immigrant communities target vulnerable young women. I think that article has it right, they view them as worthless as dogs and are therefore worthy of the same treatment and are deserving of exploitation for the sexual gratification of others.

This is both a cultural and religious phenomenon, in the same way that 'Type 2' paedophilia is not. It's something our authorities avoided for years for fear of causing "racial disharmony". I don't blame people for being pissed off about this.

Well, OK. I don't disagree with much of this at all. But here's the thing. How come almost all those who focus on Asian grooming gangs never acknowledge that there's loads of white paedophiles too? Because that equally infuriates Asian communities - for the exact same good reasons as the example you give - and just fuels division and mutual loathing.

I agree there's a cultural issue with many immigrants coming from the sub-continent. If they can't speak the language, if they're poorly educated, if they come from a culture which treats women as second class citizens (and given the horrific levels of rape in India, it's arguably just as bad there as in Pakistan), it is wildly unrealistic and dishonest not to expect big problems being exported with them. In a divided, horrendously unequal Britain, we've simply not invested properly in assimilating and educating them, nor been remotely careful enough in who we've allowed in.

But if I'm honest, I have equal contempt for racist white trash (and yes, I'm aware of the irony of that statement) too. Racist white trash are also poorly educated, ignorant, with nasty attitudes about all manner of things, and all to quick to blame their problems on an 'other'. Of course, it's ultimately the fault of society itself that so many people, whether white or Asian, are poorly educated and lacking in cultural capital; it's certainly the fault of generations of policymakers that so many parts of the UK have been disgracefully neglected.

But I'm not about to view one group of horrible arseholes as inherently worse or more dangerous than another. The implicit message of it's shit and so many like him is: he does. In short: long live tolerance. And total fucking disdain.

I'm not defending It's Shit, I'm attacking both of you for being everything that's wrong with how these discussions go -

Right-wing mongo says something inflammatory, left-wing smug mongo uses irreverent/misleading statistical data as a substitute for an argument.


Both get us nowhere, and miss the point that it's exactly not a case of being "as bad as each other". They're different crimes that may have overlaps but the motivations and mechanisms are entirely different. Just trying to shoot someone down because you think they hate brown people is what lead to our inability to properly address this problem.

It's the contempt that so many in this country hold for their fellow citizens that bothers me, the lack of consideration of their views, the mindset that they only think what they do because they're dumb bigots. We're such a toxic people, braindead, arrogant and always thinking that we know better than the man standing next to us.

that last paragraph dank that's a mirror held up to the thfam right there.

I only posted a fact from a genuine news outlet. 

(12-10-2017, 09:45 AM)Fire Doinks Wrote: It's the contempt that so many in this country hold for their fellow citizens that bothers me, the lack of consideration of their views, the mindset that they only think what they do because they're dumb bigots. We're such a toxic people, braindead, arrogant and always thinking that we know better than the man standing next to us.

(12-10-2017, 09:39 AM)Alan Partridge Wrote: Can't be denied there is a cultural problem there but it seems to be British Muslims so ou can't really send them back or whatever point it is your trying to make.

Thomas Sowell has some interesting stuff to say on this point. That the inhabitants of the Appalachian mountains(hillbillies) weren't the sons of the Enlightenment, just because they came from a similar land and a similar time doesn't mean they had the same views and motivations (positive and negative) as those they left behind. This is also true of those that came to this country. An immigrant family from a middle-class, educated district of Lahore isn't going to come to the UK with the same values and outlook as one that came from rural Swat.

Nobody is interested in nuance, nobody is interested in foreign and domestic cultural factors that may influence second generation family values, nobody is interested in theological details because it's not our place.

We never looked, so we never saw.

(12-10-2017, 09:45 AM)Fire Doinks Wrote: We're such a toxic people, braindead, arrogant and always thinking that we know better than the man standing next to us.

Are you saying that if a view is ill-informed, not backed up with evidence and very often, not based on facts, but on a feeling, we should treat it with the same respect as one which is evidence, fact-based and rational?

In the case of this discussion: it's shit posted some evidence, but didn't seem to consider the broader picture, so was shot down. We've now gone on to discuss the broader picture in any case. Incidentally: if the motivations and mechanisms are "entirely different" (but this is based on conviction rates - many cases are still out there and unreported), that means the solutions are likely to be different... but the impact of the crime is largely the same.

(12-10-2017, 09:40 AM)shaun.lawson Wrote: Well, OK. I don't disagree with much of this at all. But here's the thing. How come almost all those who focus on Asian grooming gangs never acknowledge that there's loads of white paedophiles too? Because that equally infuriates Asian communities - for the exact same good reasons as the example you give - and just fuels division and mutual loathing.

I agree there's a cultural issue with many immigrants coming from the sub-continent. If they can't speak the language, if they're poorly educated, if they come from a culture which treats women as second class citizens (and given the horrific levels of rape in India, it's arguably just as bad there as in Pakistan), it is wildly unrealistic and dishonest not to expect big problems being exported with them. In a divided, horrendously unequal Britain, we've simply not invested properly in assimilating and educating them, nor been remotely careful enough in who we've allowed in.

But if I'm honest, I have equal contempt for racist white trash (and yes, I'm aware of the irony of that statement) too. Racist white trash are also poorly educated, ignorant, with nasty attitudes about all manner of things, and all to quick to blame their problems on an 'other'. Of course, it's ultimately the fault of society itself that so many people, whether white or Asian, are poorly educated and lacking in cultural capital; it's certainly the fault of generations of policymakers that so many parts of the UK have been disgracefully neglected.

But I'm not about to view one group of horrible arseholes as inherently worse or more dangerous than another. The implicit message of it's shit and so many like him is: he does. In short: long live tolerance. And total fucking disdain.

That's blatantly untrue, I've got no statistics to back this up but I bet if you looked at those who like to discuss grooming gangs I'd wager that they advocate for the death penalty for child murderers/sex offenders in numbers that is massively disproportional to the general population. Stupid people hold strong convictions, don't feel like that's much to get your head around.

The fact is that while they might end up with similar sentences these are different crimes carried out for different reasons. Nobody is excusing your bog standard paedos by focusing on grooming gangs, I reckon most of these people want them castrated/lynched all the same, it's the coordination and the fact that those mandated to protect communities systematically failed to do so.

You say you consider these people to be poorly educated trash, well how are you unable to see things from their simple perspective if you're so much smarter and compassionate?

(12-10-2017, 09:53 AM)shaun.lawson Wrote:
Are you saying that if a view is ill-informed, not backed up with evidence and very often, not based on facts, but on a feeling, we should treat it with the same respect as one which is evidence, fact-based and rational?

No, because these things have been backed up and were routinely dismissed which only fulled prejudice. While they may regurgitate inaccurate information most people have some basis in their own lives for the views they hold.

Anyway, I've not been to sleep yet and probably should because my posts are likely to make even less sense than I already am.