(03-12-2021, 09:03 PM)Morph Wrote: Ye that's true about Twitter.

For me I wasn't meaning to knock it as not influential or daft just recognising that the comments that get the most interactions are always the most controversial so always steers away from genuine debate and not always a reflection of what the majority actually think about things.  That's why I think we shouldn't pay much attention to the daft shit because it does end up getting a pretty extreme reaction out of folk and just turns them away from showing much empathy to the actual issue and they just want to rant about blue haired bams or whatever.  

I do agree with your post though, Twitter is unfortunately the place where these sort of debates are carried out these days but I don't think it's something necessarily to be embraced but more challenged.

I think it's maybe easy for us to say that on this platform as we're engaging with the issue. There are plenty of people saying it *is* all men, though (saw a few earlier that clarified it's only all cis men though, just so they weren't generalising ). My issue with that is, who's listening to this message and taking the time to understand it? The people who are listening will largely consider their behaviours and do their best to help make women feel safe. I'm sure a lot of us will be more aware of ourselves in the future and do wee things like cross the street if we're walking behind a woman at night. That's obviously a really good thing, but those people were never the danger. I just won't be convinced that saying “it is all men” is productive when the people who aren't engaging are already the more likely to exhibit toxic masculine behaviours, and is seeing a message like that without being engaged in the issues going to change that mindset/culture, or is it more likely to entrench it?

This conversation is long overdue though. Abuse of women in all walks of life is so hyper normalised. I mind being in that club that used to be Mercado's at Waverley one night and caught this fucking guy taking photos up the barmaid's skirt. Reported it to the bouncers and they laughed and told me they didn't see it so couldn't do anything.

Even in my work - I'm quite often made to feel like I'm a miserable bastard because I challenge folk when they act in a misogynistic way. Had to pull up my boss for making sexualised jokes towards female members of staff He knows (thinks) he's harmless though, so he doesn't see the issue. I've been thinking about maybe half a dozen of those types of wee incidents in work the last few days and I am glad I'm in a place in recent years where I challenge it, whereas in the past I might have laughed along or been a bystander to it.

(03-12-2021, 09:31 PM)S.J. Wrote: We don't actually think you're a cunt, you're an amusing guy and we do recognise the novelty of this site will wear off for you, but you're free to post here and ask advice. There are a few lawyers and social workers on here that could probably nudge you in the right direction if you have any questions about your rights.

Thanks S.J. I appreciate it.

(03-12-2021, 09:35 PM)Terry Tibbs Wrote: Thanks S.J. I appreciate it.

(03-12-2021, 09:24 PM)Kashtaneer Wrote: I'll never understand what possesses people to throw their life away like that.

Im so curious about the circumstances of how he got her into his car. 

And why he was there.

(03-12-2021, 09:24 PM)Kashtaneer Wrote: I'll never understand what possesses people to throw their life away like that.

This is a truly odd post.

(03-12-2021, 09:31 PM)S.J. Wrote: We don't actually think you're a cunt, you're an amusing guy and we do recognise the novelty of this site will wear off for you, but you're free to post here and ask advice. There are a few lawyers and social workers on here that could probably nudge you in the right direction if you have any questions about your rights.

You are nippy AF when you're spamming threads Tibbs, but SJ is right as much as it pains me to agree with him on anything

He's a big bloke she'd no have much choice if he dragged her in to his motor

(03-12-2021, 09:32 PM)Cheeky Gnandos Wrote: I just won't be convinced that saying “it is all men” is productive when the people who aren't engaging are already the more likely to exhibit toxic masculine behaviours, and is seeing a message like that without being engaged in the issues going to change that mindset/culture, or is it more likely to entrench it?

On a related note, we had an open letter from the student union today. Part of it was asking why they werent seeing men outraged and saying little. Part of that is because many who were, were getting absolutely pilloried for doing so. Not many men will feel confident enough to ask thinking they'll have the same.

(03-12-2021, 09:32 PM)Cheeky Gnandos Wrote: This conversation is long overdue though. Abuse of women in all walks of life is so hyper normalised. I mind being in that club that used to be Mercado's at Waverley one night and caught this fucking guy taking photos up the barmaid's skirt. Reported it to the bouncers and they laughed and told me they didn't see it so couldn't do anything.

This is absolutely correct. We've all seen it, even challenged it but little gets done.

Though without wanting to get into whataboutery (and is somewhat related to my point further back), when I worked in a nightclub, many men (including me as staff), used to receive similar from hen parties/women in general. 'All just a laugh' apparently. 'Should take it as a compliment' apparently.

I'm giving a broad sweep but there's lots of stories, that I'm not willing to discuss on an open forum, about abhorrent behaviours.

What these incidents should bring forward is just how fucked up society is and how certain ways to act are 'normalised'. It shouldnt be the case. Not now. Not ever.

(03-12-2021, 09:31 PM)S.J. Wrote: We don't actually think you're a cunt, you're an amusing guy and we do recognise the novelty of this site will wear off for you, but you're free to post here and ask advice. There are a few lawyers and social workers on here that could probably nudge you in the right direction if you have any questions about your rights.

Aye, bloody laugh a minute haha.

(03-12-2021, 09:32 PM)Cheeky Gnandos Wrote: I think it's maybe easy for us to say that on this platform as we're engaging with the issue. There are plenty of people saying it *is* all men, though (saw a few earlier that clarified it's only all cis men though, just so they weren't generalising ). My issue with that is, who's listening to this message and taking the time to understand it? The people who are listening will largely consider their behaviours and do their best to help make women feel safe. I'm sure a lot of us will be more aware of ourselves in the future and do wee things like cross the street if we're walking behind a woman at night. That's obviously a really good thing, but those people were never the danger. I just won't be convinced that saying “it is all men” is productive when the people who aren't engaging are already the more likely to exhibit toxic masculine behaviours, and is seeing a message like that without being engaged in the issues going to change that mindset/culture, or is it more likely to entrench it?

This conversation is long overdue though. Abuse of women in all walks of life is so hyper normalised. I mind being in that club that used to be Mercado's at Waverley one night and caught this fucking guy taking photos up the barmaid's skirt. Reported it to the bouncers and they laughed and told me they didn't see it so couldn't do anything.

Even in my work - I'm quite often made to feel like I'm a miserable bastard because I challenge folk when they act in a misogynistic way. Had to pull up my boss for making sexualised jokes towards female members of staff     He knows (thinks) he's harmless though, so he doesn't see the issue. I've been thinking about maybe half a dozen of those types of wee incidents in work the last few days and I am glad I'm in a place in recent years where I challenge it, whereas in the past I might have laughed along or been a bystander to it.

What in your view is problematic behaviour? At work & within my friend group/football team etc. women's attractiveness is regularly talked about and I don't really see the issue with it. It's the exact same the other way round I think as well. Obviously I think you have to know the person well enough and how they are likely to react to that kind of chat. I also think there's obviously a line that people should know not to cross and making direct sexual jokes to someone, especially in work, definitely crosses that.

I'm not really sure what the answer is but I've seen a lot of posts shared on Instagram about 'educating yourself' and I'm not really sure what that means. I think most people know that being a creepy bastard is wrong but think they can get away with it or aren't able to control themselves, fuck knows. They definitely know that rape/murder is wrong so I'm not really sure what you can do to mitigate/reduce it. Whenever someone has been an overtly creepy bastard they have been called out in my friend group. A boy in my football team was taking creepy pics of some random bird on the train and posting them in the group chat without their knowledge and he still gets slagged for being a creep to this day.

Honestly fucking amazing to see this all going on and just not post

(03-12-2021, 11:02 PM)Makween Wrote: Honestly fucking amazing to see this all going on and just not post

I bet it's killing you.

Mate not posting is class. You should try it.

(03-12-2021, 11:02 PM)Makween Wrote: Honestly fucking amazing to see this all going on and just not post

Agreed - it's amazing seeing you not post.

e: you beat me to the zinger by seconds

(03-12-2021, 11:05 PM)Makween Wrote: Mate not posting is class. You should try it.

I have but it was shite because I couldn't read my posts.

(03-12-2021, 11:05 PM)Gnanduillet-cey Wrote: Agreed - it's amazing seeing you not post.

e: you beat me to the zinger by seconds

(03-12-2021, 11:06 PM)Shteve Wrote: I have but it was shite because I couldn't read my posts.

Lewy played at his own game 

This thread has been an emotional rollercoaster tonight.

(03-12-2021, 10:58 PM)Vieri Wrote: What in your view is problematic behaviour? At work & within my friend group/football team etc. women's attractiveness is regularly talked about and I don't really see the issue with it. It's the exact same the other way round I think as well. Obviously I think you have to know the person well enough and how they are likely to react to that kind of chat. I also think there's obviously a line that people should know not to cross and making direct sexual jokes to someone, especially in work, definitely crosses that.

I'm not really sure what the answer is but I've seen a lot of posts shared on Instagram about 'educating yourself' and I'm not really sure what that means. I think most people know that being a creepy bastard is wrong but think they can get away with it or aren't able to control themselves, fuck knows. They definitely know that rape/murder is wrong so I'm not really sure what you can do to mitigate/reduce it. Whenever someone has been an overtly creepy bastard they have been called out in my friend group. A boy in my football team was taking creepy pics of some random bird on the train and posting them in the group chat without their knowledge and he still gets slagged for being a creep to this day.

The example I gave in my post was representative of the stuff I've pulled people up about - sexual jokes made directly at female members of staff, that kind of thing. I'm not going off on one if someone says X is good looking It's pretty draining being that guy, and you get a lot of “WE'RE ONLY JOKING” type comments before they go away and reflect, and normally they come back and say yeah, that was out of order. But that's in a place where people are educated and supposedly aware of these issues, and somewhere I feel comfortable challenging folk.

Yeah, 'educate yourself' is a bit of a buzz phrase and people do tend to throw about suggestions that aren't very helpful - I saw someone say “why don't we tell boys and men not to attack women” yesterday Fuck, can't believe no one has tried that (I'm being facetious, obv - it's a serious point wrapped in daft language). I take it to mean that you read/listen to women's experiences and adapt your behaviour accordingly, or use it to become more aware of warning signs etc.

Would've thought Begbie would be all in favour of people educating themselves, seeing as he's shite at it.