'Scottish National Team' thread

[shaun.lawson]

Not sure if I fully agree with Lawson, but presumably the difference would be that at club level they're all mercenaries whereas at international level only the manager is there because he's paid to be?

Yes indeed. Plus the manager can't get his chequebook out and buy someone else if he falls out with players. There's so much intense focus on national teams during major tournaments that if you're not all together, it'll go wrong.

The other thing I should've mentioned above is when someone becomes manager of a country, it's a real honour. A very different, much more elevated kind of honour to becoming a manager of a particular club - because it means you're trying to win for everyone. And the collective always trumps the exclusive.

[Cheeky Gnando’s]

When Capello declared his interest in managing England - which he'd mentioned previously too - i8hibsh demanded to know why. Why would this highly successful manager who'd won everything in the club game want to manage England? The only answer could be money.

And the thing is, i8hibsh was right. Capello, like Eriksson, was a mercenary. And when a mercenary manages a national team... how do they galvanise their players in times of difficulty? How do they feel it? They can't - and the players notice. The worst thing that can happen to the manager is they swan off to another lucrative gig and get a massive pay-off, leaving the players to get it in the neck from press and public. It's not a recipe for unity or success.

Of course, it's true that Guus Hiddink succeeded with Korea and Australia, Ernst Happel with Holland, Sepp Piontek with Denmark, Jack Charlton with Ireland and most of all, Otto Rehhagel with Greece... but the pattern here (Happel excepted) is it generally only works when football has no real popular roots in the country before the manager comes in. That's not the case in Scotland. Even in the US, where football's still only the fifth biggest team sport, the sporting public never really took to Klinsmann: fair enough too, given he only seemed to want the job because of the lifestyle it offered.

So it's not a recipe for success, except all the times it's worked? Insightful stuff

[Steven Toast]

So it's not a recipe for success, except all the times it's worked? Insightful stuff

It's fucking painful stuff.

[shaun.lawson]

So it's not a recipe for success, except all the times it's worked? Insightful stuff

It's not a recipe for success, except in countries which have no prior footballing tradition (and even in Happel's case, Holland had no tradition at all until the late 60s/early 70s). Meaning countries where the public has hitherto not cared much about the national team. Meaning countries where the press and public will therefore be extremely patient.

Does Scotland fit into that category?

[Floyd]

It's fucking painful stuff.

Have a pozzy Toast.

[Groot]

Football had no real popular roots in Greece before Renhagel 

[2MatoFish]

Football had no real popular roots in Greece before Renhagel 

[shaun.lawson]

Football had no real popular roots in Greece before Renhagel 

Before Rehhagel, Greece had won a grand total of zero matches and scored a grand total of zero goals in major tournaments. And only qualified for one (1994), where they were humiliated.

Before Piontek, Denmark had qualified for zero major tournaments. Before Charlton, Ireland had qualified for zero major tournaments. Before Hiddink, Korea had never achieved a damn thing and Australia had qualified for one World Cup ever. Before Bielsa, Chile had never won anything and had qualified for one World Cup since 1982.

And even in Happel's case: a) as there was no footballing tradition in Holland prior to the late 60s, the conveyor belt of Dutch coaches naturally only started later, ie. in the late 80s; b) he'd already done fantastic things with Feyenoord, so had no problems understanding Dutch players.

What's the advantage of taking over a small country with no prior tradition? It's not just patience from press and public. It's that with no historical baggage or entrenched cultural attitudes to deal with, you can give the national team a whole new identity - which every one of the examples I've mentioned (except Happel) did. Identities which in most cases have been maintained. Then look at England under Eriksson and Capello. We had no identity at all. Just a collection of egos and individuals shoehorned together by half arsed mercenary managers.

During Vogts' time, he was hounded by a xenophobic media, not given much patience, and his results were mostly appalling. The question any prospective foreign manager of Scotland will face is: "Why do you want this job?" The question for Scotland supporters is: "Are you willing to give someone with completely new ideas the time to face down entrenched attitudes and truly change things?" To which the answer is invariably "of course we are", only for the complaints to immediately start after the first defeat.

[Del-icious]

Before Lawson talk hearts was a tranquil place where we weren't bored with stats about 1970s Slavic football.

[Groot]

Popular roots has turned to tradition now yeah?

Football has been popular in Greece for a long long time, yes that did not transform into performances at International level but you can't compare Greece pre Renhagel to Korea, Australia etc 

Even then with Australia the upsurge with them can probably be linked more with them leaving the Oceanic qualification section which resulted in qualification ties for example against South American teams giving them less chance of qualification to moving to the Asian region where suddenly them qualifying became more achievable

[Big Physical Acey]

Wait, so the United States of America has more of a “football tradition” (whatever the fuck that means - points at major tournaments apparently?) than Greece or the Netherlands?

You talk some fucking shite man.

[Pete Seeger]

They fucking love their fitba in Greece. Hadn't realised it was a recent thing.

[CritchSmile]

Greece are frickin wild for football. Like Turkish style mental for it.

[PHOODLE-OUt]

^^^ recent

[Cheeky Gnando’s]

So foreign managers aren't a recipe for success... unless they're part of the long list of the ones who have succeeded... but they don't count because they managed countries with no footballing traditions... except for Pékerman, Sampaioli, Rehhagel, and a list as long as your arm of guys who have successfully managed nations with long footballing traditions...but they don't count either because footballing traditions actually means arbitrary definitions of historical success...

What kind of incoherent fucking point is this

Here's a wacky, blue sky thinking idea - maybe good managers who are right for the jobs they are given can achieve success, regardless of where they were born?

[Roger H. Sterling]

I'd take a worse manager over a better one if he was Scottish. Not really getting Shaun's weird points but I just think national tournaments should pit teams made up of people from the nations competing.

[Groot]

I'd take a worse manager over a better one if he was Scottish. Not really getting Shaun's weird points but I just think national tournaments should pit teams made up of people from the nations competing.

That's an idealistic view and not one I'd necessarily disagree with, at least on your second point

However as long as that's not a fixed requirement I don't care where they're from I just want someone who can improve us and isn't a wee arrogant ignorant ginger hibby celtic loving cunt

[Floyd]

That's an idealistic view and not one I'd necessarily disagree with, at least on your second point

However as long as that's not a fixed requirement I don't care where they're from I just want someone who can improve us and isn't a wee arrogant ignorant ginger hibby celtic loving cunt

No Strachan or Lennon is a plan I can get behind.

[Johnny]

That's an idealistic view and not one I'd necessarily disagree with, at least on your second point

However as long as that's not a fixed requirement I don't care where they're from I just want someone who can improve us and isn't a wee arrogant ignorant ginger hibby celtic loving cunt

If that were to become a rule; I'd be Ok with it. Until it does, roll in a wily old Italian or something

[Shuto Makino]

Bring in Nevio Scala