'Scottish National Team' thread

[Herman Boyce]

Would McInnes be interested in it? I think he's waiting for the right offer to come in from a bigger club.


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[Floyd]

Heard from a good source tonight that Smith is pissed off that there's been no official contact since he was sounded out last week and is fast losing patience.

Petrie wants McLeish, although no one else on the committee is keen, so if the cardigan doesn't take it, Malky will get it and be expected to do both jobs.

[shaun.lawson]

So foreign managers aren't a recipe for success... unless they're part of the long list of the ones who have succeeded... but they don't count because they managed countries with no footballing traditions... except for Pékerman, Sampaioli, Rehhagel, and a list as long as your arm of guys who have successfully managed nations with long footballing traditions...but they don't count either because footballing traditions actually means arbitrary definitions of historical success...

It's perfectly coherent thanks. If a country has never achieved anything whatsoever (ie. Greece), the public, however fanatical some of them might be, can't demand football is played in a certain way - so someone like Rehhagel is free to come in and create their own imprint, which often lasts a heck of a long time afterwards.

Imagine Ireland had qualified for anything before Charlton came in. Just a couple of World Cups, say. If they had, there's no chance on Earth their press and public would've put up with such combine harvester football - but because they hadn't, their reaction was "hang on, this shit works!" So they got right behind him and became a true collective, everyone (except eternal gobshite Dunphy) together.

Pekerman? All Colombia, one of world football's most historic underachievers, had ever done prior to his arrival was qualify for three World Cups and won a Copa America on home soil which half the continent boycotted. Not much; certainly not enough for anyone to oppose the appointment. Bielsa? Chile were well known throughout this continent for having done nothing and having no discernible identity before his arrival. Sampaoli's achievements were because of what Bielsa left him.

And legacies of certain managers last so long that even today, Ireland still play exactly the same kind of miserable anti-football as under Charlton; as do Paraguay, because of foundations laid by Uruguayan Sergio Markarian from the 1980s onwards. As for what Acey said about the US: it has enough of a tradition now to have never fully supported Klinsmann, despite him getting very good results in two major tournaments.

Scotland treated Vogts in such a shabby way because Scotland was not ready for a foreign manager. Remarkably - note Le Guen's disaster at Rangers, then Deila's at Celtic - it still doesn't seem ready now. So is on the point of turning to Malky Mackay (WTF?) instead. Conclusion: if a country's football and cultural traditions and expectations are endemic and entrenched (even if, like Scotland, it's done nothing in two decades), it's incredibly difficult and borderline impossible for a foreign manager to come in and succeed.

[Floyd]

Scotland treated Vogts in such a shabby way because Scotland was not ready for a foreign manager. Remarkably - note Le Guen's disaster at Rangers, then Deila's at Celtic - it still doesn't seem ready now. So is on the point of turning to Malky Mackay (WTF?) instead. Conclusion: if a country's football and cultural traditions and expectations are endemic and entrenched (even if, like Scotland, it's done nothing in two decades), it's incredibly difficult and borderline impossible for a foreign manager to come in and succeed.

Player power at Rangers cost Le Guen his job at Ibrox, but Advocaat didn't do too badly, so the not ready for a foreign manager doesn't wash at Rangers.

In regards to Celtic, Deila got emptied due to his failures in Europe and the lack of a treble while Rangers were in the lower league. However, a certain Wim Jansen didn't do too badly for Celtic during his tenure, so again the foreign manager argument again doesn't wash.

Particularly as both clubs have employed British managers who've hardly set the league on fire, messers Mowbray, Barnes & McCoist please take a bow.

Scotland looking at Walter or Malky as saviour of the national team is just an example of jobs for the boys and our outdated committee structure favouring someone they know, rather than genuinely going outwith the box and approaching someone like Steve Clarke or dare I say it, a foreigner.

Scottish football at the highest level will never change unless they ditch the jobs for the blazers committees.

[Sarkozabal]

It's like the SFA were that disgusted with the idea of the foreigner that they looked for the furthest thing away from that that they could possibly find, and have come up with a dinosaur/racist dream team.

[Hank Scorpio]

Scotland treated Vogts in such a shabby way because Scotland was not ready for a foreign manager. Remarkably - note Le Guen's disaster at Rangers, then Deila's at Celtic - it still doesn't seem ready now. So is on the point of turning to Malky Mackay (WTF?) instead. Conclusion: if a country's football and cultural traditions and expectations are endemic and entrenched (even if, like Scotland, it's done nothing in two decades), it's incredibly difficult and borderline impossible for a foreign manager to come in and succeed.

That would hold a bit more credence if Deila was Celtic's first foreign manager. Wim Jansen did a decent job long before that. Deila was miles out of his depth in that role.

 Vogts was mostly about timing. He had to completely rebuild due to the horrendous situation Craig Brown left the team in. Vogts had to throw umpteen players against the wall to see what stuck, and it was that (admittedly forced) scattergun approach that turned fans off and got us some stinking results. 

Unlike 2002, Scotland have got some decent foundations and a good mix of youth and experience which would be open to foreign management, should the right candidate come along.

[Zizou]

Scotland treated Vogts in such a shabby way because Scotland was not ready for a foreign manager. Remarkably - note Le Guen's disaster at Rangers, then Deila's at Celtic - it still doesn't seem ready now. So is on the point of turning to Malky Mackay (WTF?) instead. Conclusion: if a country's football and cultural traditions and expectations are endemic and entrenched (even if, like Scotland, it's done nothing in two decades), it's incredibly difficult and borderline impossible for a foreign manager to come in and succeed.

So Le Guen and Deila being terrible means the daft jocks can't handle a foreigner? There have been countless foreign managers in Scotland who have done well. We have had a few ourselves. Two of them even won cups. Very poor point.

[Herman Boyce]

It's perfectly coherent thanks.

It's really not you complete slavour.

[2MatoFish]

That would hold a bit more credence if Deila was Celtic's first foreign manager. Wim Jansen did a decent job long before that. Deila was miles out of his depth in that role.

Jo Venglos had the pish ripped out of him for not outdoing a strong rangers team. Jansen was lionized for outperforming an over the hill rangers team.

[Johnny]

Sure Delia was only supposed to be the assistant to Roy Keane. He was to be technical guru while Keane was for the blood and thunder ra ra speaches

Apparantly, Delia was also wooed because he came from the same team as Martin Odegaard, the Norwegian wonder kid who went to Real Madrid. Celtic were after him and thought having his manager involved would be a big draw for them

[Array]

Was going to nearly all Scotland matches home & away at Vogts time and remember well what the attitude to him was at the time from amongst the Scotland fans.  It was widely accepted that he had to try youngsters and to keep changing the side every game, cos of the extent of the changes needed, (and even the huge number of friendlies was grudgingly tolerated cos it was recognised that he needed to try out different players & formations).  But after a while the continuing churn of players got the support down - they wanted a settled side which could compete as the previous 2 managers' sides had and the ongoing changes & experiments eventually turned them against him - they wanted him to identify a side and a style of play 'cos that's what a manager should do'.  It was nowt to do with the fact he was foreign.

[shaun.lawson]

Player power at Rangers cost Le Guen his job at Ibrox, but Advocaat didn't do too badly, so the not ready for a foreign manager doesn't wash at Rangers.

In regards to Celtic, Deila got emptied due to his failures in Europe and the lack of a treble while Rangers were in the lower league. However, a certain Wim Jansen didn't do too badly for Celtic during his tenure, so again the foreign manager argument again doesn't wash.

Particularly as both clubs have employed British managers who've hardly set the league on fire, messers Mowbray, Barnes & McCoist please take a bow.

Scotland looking at Walter or Malky as saviour of the national team is just an example of jobs for the boys and our outdated committee structure favouring someone they know, rather than genuinely going outwith the box and approaching someone like Steve Clarke or dare I say it, a foreigner.

Scottish football at the highest level will never change unless they ditch the jobs for the blazers committees.

Two problems with the above:

1. Advocaat is far and away the biggest managerial reason why Rangers ended up dying. He spent, and he spent, and he spent. At one point, David Murray didn't even know which players were coming and going, so incessant was the revolving door.

Yet Advocaat only had success by spending so much - then it rapidly went tits up. International managers, of course, can't bring in new players; they can only make do with what they have. Which in Scotland's case, isn't very much.

2. Jansen did well for a year (albeit, with a lower points total than under Tommy Burns: Rangers lost the league more than Celtic won it). What happened then? Jansen left having clashed with Jock Brown: having smacked straight into the old fashioned, British way of doing things. Which was what forced Le Guen out too: players not willing to change, and the owner backing them, not the manager.

On the whole, Scottish clubs are surely more progressive now than a decade ago, mostly because lack of money has forced them to be so. But old attitudes still die very, very hard. And to partly answer AP above: Hearts were an attractive job when Sergio took it because it offered far and away the third biggest budget and a talented squad. The moment Sergio realised we'd be cutting back (and we hadn't even been paying his wages to begin with), he got the hell out of dodge.

Sadly, in terms of raw materials, Scotland have markedly little to offer any foreign manager. Which is why the question of any prospective foreign boss should be: "Why do you want this job?"

[shaun.lawson]

Jo Venglos had the pish ripped out of him for not outdoing a strong rangers team. Jansen was lionized for outperforming an over the hill rangers team.

Correct. The second time Jo Venglos had the pish ripped out of him in the UK: he was the English top division's first ever foreign manager, and immediately turned Villa's title contenders into relegation strugglers.

But on what you say: it's much more that Jansen was the Celtic fans' man because he stopped 10 in a row, then stood up to a board so hated, they booed Fergus McCann on flag unveiling day. Venglos was seen as the board's puppet - the fate of anyone who replaced Jansen, I suspect.

[Walter Sobchak]

Jackie McNamara

[2MatoFish]

The Cardi has ruled himself out. Looks like malky gets the scotland job by default after landing the dof job by default.

[Pete Seeger]

honestly struggling to think of a possible less inspiring appointment than Malky MacKay. Genuinely woeful.

[Shteve]

Any old useless cunt will be throwing their hat in the ring in the hope they are getting that desperate that they'll appoint anyone. Probably settle for Mackay at this point.

[Zizou]

McNamara is after the chief executive role rather than the managers job

[PHOODLE-OUt]

Fucking circus

[CritchSmile]

So Le Guen and Deila being terrible means the daft jocks can't handle a foreigner? There have been countless foreign managers in Scotland who have done well. We have had a few ourselves. Two of them even won cups. Very poor point.

Shaun is breaking new ground in talking shite recently.