'Wings Over TalkHearts' Politics Thread

[Walter Sobchak]

I'm pretty sure they were Romanian and it's not a different argument because the point I was making was one of quality of life, social integration and the perception of them by native citizens. The issues I'm discussing are the same for those low income migrants as they are for Syrian refugees once they touch down in a German city.

It will be addressed, just at a very laboured pace with resistance at every possible point. Geoff's post cuts through a lot of the crap and gets down to what probably needs to and will happen. I was more talking about what life will actually be like for these people once they are officially recognised in a European country for years to come.

It's difficult to discuss the situation of the Roma (those 'romanians' 'sleeping rough' would likely be Roma) without veering worryingly into stereotyping, but there is a world of difference between Roma as migrants (but in the main not really looking for work) and refugees, who you seem to be confusing for economic migrants. There are reasons for the poor perception of Roma people, which wouldn't apply to others, you only need to look at Govanhill in Glasgow to see for yourself, unfortunately. There are huge problems for the Roma community, but if you look at the issues they have - again look at Glasgow - they are really not at all similar to the problems the Refugee community face.

Glasgow is also a great example of what "life is like for these people [refugees] in years to come" which is that they integrate, work, learn English, their kids go to school, get educated, achieve and then become British citizens. Comparing refugees to Roma (who often aren't even homeless, but are forced to be part of begging gangs who are run by gangmasters or some patriarch and are victims of trafficking, who then are taken back to live in cramped accomodation, but not actually sleeping rough) is way off the mark. The Roma have their own problems, as I've said with being trafficked, with cultural issues, with lack of education, but they cannot really be compared to refugees. The issues they face are really quite far apart.

[Walter Sobchak]

All valid points, but the situation is urgent. Germany are taking on 800,000 and shitebag Britain a couple of hundred. We have to do more regardless of the long term issues.

We should definitely be setting up a resettlement programme and taking in a lot more. Every council in the UK should then be given an allocated number of refugees who they then have to take in, and house. Bizarrely Motherwell did this with a (very) small group from the DRC a few years ago. Glasgow is the only council to take refugee dispersal in Scotland, and has been since they started around 2000.

As an aside, if a Syrian reaches the UK, then according to the current caselaw they are entitled to Refugee status - even a "failed" asylum seeker from Syria would be at risk on return (of persecution), meaning they then aren't failed, because the risk means they are refugees. The problem is getting them here.

[CritchSmile]

Shaun Lawson ‏@shaunjlawson 28m28 minutes ago

.@David_Cameron You pathetic, miserable, snivelling little worm. Be a man for once and do the right thing. Or be damned as you deserve to be
0 retweets 0 favorites

[Walter Sobchak]

Shaun Lawson ‏@shaunjlawson 28m28 minutes ago

.@David_Cameron You pathetic, miserable, snivelling little worm. Be a man for once and do the right thing. Or be damned as you deserve to be

[PHOODLE-OUt]

I know ... petitions etc, but this is worth two seconds of your time.

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/105991

I'm the same re petitions but I signed that one at the independent last night.

[GeoffK1874]

Shaun Lawson ‏@shaunjlawson 28m28 minutes ago

.@David_Cameron You pathetic, miserable, snivelling little worm. Be a man for once and do the right thing. Or be damned as you deserve to be
0 retweets 0 favorites

I'm sure whoever manages that Twitter account will be giving two fucks.

Still, Shaun feels better now.

[Zizou]

Dawn Porter has come up with a good idea

Dawn O'Porter ‏@hotpatooties 23h23 hours ago
Everyone we have a HELP CALAIS&GREEC​E Wish List! Order items here & they'll come straight to us & we'll do the rest
http://www.amazon.co.uk/registry/wishlis...5vb917CQ5B …
327 retweets 139 favorites
Reply Retweet 327 Favorite 139
More

http://www.amazon.co.uk/registry/wishlis...5vb917CQ5B

Pretty anaw

[Ray Winstone]

Shaun Lawson ‏@shaunjlawson 28m28 minutes ago

.@David_Cameron You pathetic, miserable, snivelling little worm. Be a man for once and do the right thing. Or be damned as you deserve to be
0 retweets 0 favorites

That level of SEETHE.

[PHOODLE-OUt]

Lawson shamelessly just looking for 'Faves and RTs'. Probably DM'd the PM after and apologised profusely. 

[PHOODLE-OUt]

In fact - "or be damned as you deserve to be" sounds like a religiousy threat on his life, hope Mi5 are busting his bedsit door down and shooting him multiple times in the face

[Ray Winstone]

The force is strong with the Independence DR Congos at the moment. 'INDEPENDENCE BECAUSE DEAD SYRIANS' seems to be summing up their current argument quite nicely.

[shaun.lawson]

You guys

1 thing I've learned today. We haven't only taken in 216 Syrian refugees. It's actually 5000:

https://fullfact.org/factcheck/immigrati...gees-45984

This makes me a tiny fraction less uncomfortable with this rotten government and its disgusting media-driven narrative - but only a fraction.

And speaking of our media overlords, Sun and Mail-driven Cameron U-turn now underway:

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/blog...2877f3e007

[Walter Sobchak]

You guys

1 thing I've learned today. We haven't only taken in 216 Syrian refugees. It's actually 5000:

https://fullfact.org/factcheck/immigrati...gees-45984

This makes me a tiny fraction less uncomfortable with this rotten government and its disgusting media-driven narrative - but only a fraction.

That's what I was getting at above when I said that once in the UK, a Syrian is entitled to refugee status. I see the phrase "taken in" as having a different meaning though, as in have agreeing to "take in" a set number under a UN resettlement programme for instance. I see this article explains that distinction as well.  

[Ray Winstone]

Is there a breakdown on how many refugees/re-settlers each EU country has declared it is willing to take?

[shaun.lawson]

And now for the thoughts of the UKIP candidate for Wimbledon (brace yourself):

https://twitter.com/bucklitsch/status/63...6898963456

[shaun.lawson]

That's what I was getting at above when I said that once in the UK, a Syrian is entitled to refugee status. I see the phrase "taken in" as having a different meaning though, as in have agreeing to "take in" a set number under a UN resettlement programme for instance. I see this article explains that distinction as well.  

And it turns out that in March, the Home Office changed the rules anyway. Vile, just vile.

https://www.ein.org.uk/news/new-statemen...um-seekers

[Walter Sobchak]

And it turns out that in March, the Home Office changed the rules anyway. Vile, just vile.

https://www.ein.org.uk/news/new-statemen...um-seekers

It's totally shameful. Sickening.

[Cheeky Gnando’s]

Not like this government to shift the goalposts if they don't like them where they are. Child poverty, asylum, deficit targets etc etc etc.

[Fire Doinks]

It's difficult to discuss the situation of the Roma (those 'romanians' 'sleeping rough' would likely be Roma) without veering worryingly into stereotyping, but there is a world of difference between Roma as migrants (but in the main not really looking for work) and refugees, who you seem to be confusing for economic migrants. There are reasons for the poor perception of Roma people, which wouldn't apply to others, you only need to look at Govanhill in Glasgow to see for yourself, unfortunately. There are huge problems for the Roma community, but if you look at the issues they have - again look at Glasgow - they are really not at all similar to the problems the Refugee community face.

Glasgow is also a great example of what "life is like for these people [refugees] in years to come" which is that they integrate, work, learn English, their kids go to school, get educated, achieve and then become British citizens. Comparing refugees to Roma (who often aren't even homeless, but are forced to be part of begging gangs who are run by gangmasters or some patriarch and are victims of trafficking, who then are taken back to live in cramped accomodation, but not actually sleeping rough) is way off the mark. The Roma have their own problems, as I've said with being trafficked, with cultural issues, with lack of education, but they cannot really be compared to refugees. The issues they face are really quite far apart.

Sorry to pull this back, but I haven't once confused Syrian refugees (or Eritrean, Sudanese etc.) with economic migrants. I'll say once again that my point was specifically relating to the quality of life that should be afforded to them once they reach our teritory and whether or not we have the capability to provide that.

This is not a moral, xenophobic or anything of that nature kind of point I'm making, I'm purely speaking in terms of provision for anyone that the governments of European nations recognise in their own countries and the subsequent integration of those individuals. There is absolutely no difference in my mind between what we should provide these people with, and I'm approaching this from the point of view that we seem to be incapable of providing (again, I offer no moral position of my own when stating that) them with the means that are befitting of someone living in our country (or many other EU nations that have a similar standard of living). It is on that basis that I attempt to empathise with the reactionary and sometimes hysterical approach that the right wing has taken across Europe. If they don't see or don't care about the distinctions between a refugee and a migrant then it is utterly irrelivent to point them out, their position has been made clear on the issue and a different approach is needed to alleviate those concerns.


Sometimes when I post on here or talk elsewhere I feel like people must think I'm some nutcase right wing racist, but that couldn't be further from what I am so the only view I can possibly take is that my point has been misunderstood. I think one of the biggest problems we have is a failure to acknowledge or even listen to ideas that seem unpalatable at first take, this leads to a barrier of ignorance and perpetuates the problems our society faces. I think there is another way, where idealism isn't threatened by pragmatism but sees it as an opportunity to overcome the obstacles it is presented with, rather than just shout them down in the face of concern.

[Papin]

According to the Sky poll straight after the last debate, Corbyn got over 80%

The other 3 should just pack up there shit.