'Wings Over TalkHearts' Politics Thread

[PHOODLE-OUt]

It's just a huge card game between Russia, US and Britain. Quite entertaining tbh. Not sure what France's angle is in all this tbh. Shaun can probably elaborate.

[Walter Sobchak]

Won't quote you Walter or it'll get too long but I've got a few folk like that too. I know what they think their politics are but that doesn't prove to be the case with that conspiratorial stuff, which goes along with something I've said in the past that is these anti-bigots are just as bigoted as the people they attack and just as guilty of false assumptions.

Nick Cohen (trigger warning - Jew name) has done some very good stuff on how the biggest supporters of Islamofascist groups and individuals in the UK is the far left. Couldnt recall his entire argument from memory but makes a very interesting point about how these two have found eachother under an anti-western imperialist banner, mixed in with capitalist self-loathing and white guilt.

Just after posting that I saw this appear on said feed:
https://hat4uk.wordpress.com/2015/11/15/...took-part/

Alongside stuff about zionist masterplans and so on. And about 5 videos of innocent syrian families who have suffered in Raqqa.

So much white guilt.

[Walter Sobchak]

Think Putin has hinted that he'd be willing to do that, if all the sanctions US and Europe have placed on Russia are lifted.

Unsurprisingly

[PHOODLE-OUt]

SNP 50% (-5), Lab 20% (-),Cons 18% (+6),LD 7% (-)

Good news for the Tories.

[CritchSmile]

Lib Dem and Labour are so fucking pathetic. Imagine if Tories became the second biggest party with 18%.

The SNP domestically are bang average on things like Education and Police Force. Fucking go after them.

[Crocodile Busan]

That's the first vote though so it's first past the post, doubt it'll make that much difference really.

[Diego Armando Toblerone]

The second vote is the one that's interesting, especially when you get to look to see who the list MSP's are.

I'd be concerned if I was a labour voter and spotted that former leader of Glasgow City Council - Gordon Matheson, was on the gravy train to Holyrood after his failed deputy leadership bid.

[Mr A]

'Mon the Tories

We'll chip away some of that soft labour and soft SNP vote

The Tories are having a party

[shaun.lawson]

It's just a huge card game between Russia, US and Britain. Quite entertaining tbh. Not sure what France's angle is in all this tbh. Shaun can probably elaborate.

France? Oh boy oh boy.

You'll probably know that Platini voted for 2022 in Qatar. Why did he do that? Because increasingly, France does what Qatar tells it to. It's the beneficiary of so much investment that it's practically a client state of Qatar. The latter wants to build a gas pipeline to Turkey... through Syria. Naturally, the Russians are not best pleased at Qatar cutting in on their action: hence their support for Assad. Hence, in all likelihood, Qatar's role in funding and arming both anti-Assad rebels, and ISIS itself.

So when the chemical weapons attack happened 2 years ago, which country was first to demand that Assad and Syria be "punished"? France. That's despite what little evidence there was probably pointing towards ISIS' forerunners, not Assad, as the culprits. France were also first to demand action in Libya: they led, Britain quickly followed, and Obama was dragged in very reluctantly, against his better judgement.

France and Britain's motives in Libya - which they turned into a failed state, doing a huge amount to trigger the refugee crisis - were presumably oil-related. But the French have the added complication of their historic ties to North Africa. As Mak has alluded to, relations between North African (particularly Algerian) immigrants and, for want of a better term, the 'indigenous' French population are dreadful - but it's had so much immigration that the tide of Islamist extremism across much of North Africa and the Sahel is a clear threat to its security. Thus it's been at the forefront of fighting that tide: militarily, France has become the US' biggest ally in the war on terror, targeting extremists in Mali, Chad and Niger.

Again, the Sahel boasts huge natural resources, so French motives may again be economic to an extent - but they're to do with security above all. But their ongoing role in Africa combined with serious ethnic tensions in France makes them a natural target for militants: who, probably correctly, view France and Belgium as the weakest links in the European chain. Scarily for the West, ISIS aren't stupid. They're anything but.

[PHOODLE-OUt]

Cheers Shaun

[Fire Doinks]

Qatar does not have France in some vassal/client situation. Where did you read/come up with that stuff?

I'd say its much more reasonable to suggest that their colonial history with Syria is a far greater reason for their vocal opposition than some sordid ties with Qatari investment. France have proven over many years and many conflicts that they feel a need to intervene in their former empire during wars probably more than any other western nation.

[shaun.lawson]

Qatar does not have France in some vassal/client situation. Where did you read/come up with that stuff?

I'd say its much more reasonable to suggest that their colonial history with Syria is a far greater reason for their vocal opposition than some sordid ties with Qatari investment. France have proven over many years and many conflicts that they feel a need to intervene in their former empire during wars probably more than any other western nation.

For national security reasons, I understand their need to do that in the Sahel. And now, given what ISIS just did to them. What I don't get is why they've done it so often since the Empire was supposedly wound up?

As for Qatar, I know you take a dim view of conspiracy theories, but have you seriously never stopped to ask yourself:

1. Why did France, Germany and Spain ALL vote for a World Cup in Qatar (!) in the fucking summer (!!) when even Blatter voted for the US?

2. Why has there never been a serious campaign in Europe to have that World Cup removed from Qatar despite everything we now know about how it was awarded to them?

3. Why did European associations fall in behind Platini despite it being obvious to the world and its wife how bent he is?

4. Why has there been so little comment from Western politicians about Qatar's role in arming and funding the extremists?

5. What this has to do with the Syrian war? http://www.theguardian.com/environment/e...-pipelines

6. And hey, if you dismiss point 5, you can't dismiss point 6. Wikileaks' cables about Syria and the US:

https://wikileaks.org/plusd/cables/06DAM...399_a.html

[CritchSmile]

When shaun confuses the world cup with international terrorism.

[shaun.lawson]

Oh, and by the way:

http://edition.cnn.com/2012/09/28/world/...s-funding/

That's a country which practices fundamentalist Salafi and Wahhabi Islam, and has armed and funded the world's most hideous terrorist group, investing in areas so blighted, so miserable, so run down, that many fear they'll play host to future terrorists. Great stuff.

The investment went ahead too.

[shaun.lawson]

When shaun confuses the world cup with international terrorism.

Given Germany got the 2006 World Cup by doing an arms deal with Saudi Arabia shortly before the vote, there may be more parallels than you might think, Scott.

[Fire Doinks]

Why have they done it since the end of empire? I don't think France lost or gave up its empire in a way that is comparable with Britain, they exercise more control over their foreign territory than we do and I believe this comes down to the values of the republic.

I imagine historical pride plays at least as big a role in the French identity as it does in hours, so I'd think that interventionist cases are made on the basis that France does have a moral responsibility to act and a duty to uphold the values of the republic which are at least in some sense part of every former colony.

I'm not a big conspiracy fan because I fail to see the level of order and coordination in this world that would be required to complete such a world view. Of course states engage in conspiritorial activity but I think you're trying to tie upp too many things in to a neat bundle of association. In my experience the world just isnt like that.

e- fair few errors in the above post and a couple of sentences don't make total sense after my phones autocorrect went a bit mental but I can't be arsed editing

[shaun.lawson]

Why have they done it since the end of empire? I don't think France lost or gave up its empire in a way that is comparable with Britain, they exercise more control over their foreign territory than we do and I believe this comes down to the values of the republic.

I imagine historical pride plays at least as big a role in the French identity as it does in hours, so I'd think that interventionist cases are made on the basis that France does have a moral responsibility to act and a duty to uphold the values of the republic which are at least in some sense part of every former colony.

I'm not a big conspiracy fan because I fail to see the level of order and coordination in this world that would be required to complete such a world view. Of course states engage in conspiritorial activity but I think you're trying to tie upp too many things in to a neat bundle of association. In my experience the world just isnt like that.

Oh, I hardly think the world is controlled by invisible dark forces pulling strings or something. I do think, though, that as international relations are so massively based on cynicism - power is the ability of A to get B to do what A wants - it stands to reason that deeply cynical motives underpin most conflicts... because war is just diplomacy pursued through other means.

I used to favour cock-up over conspiracy almost every time. Too much has happened over the last 10-15 years for me to keep doing so. And in the case of Syria, I have never been more suspicious than during the apparent rush to bomb Assad two years ago despite there being no evidence that his forces had committed the chemical weapons attack. In fact, there was scarcely any attempt to prove it; the only thing that seemed to matter in London, Paris and Washington was that the attack had happened at all.

I rarely lean towards the idea of false flags... but I did on that occasion. And still do.

[Mr A]

http://new.spectator.co.uk/2015/11/paris...such-risk/

"Europe's chaos vindicates decisions Britain has made
For a country to tolerate Britain's level of immigration with no far-right backlash is nothing short of extraordinary"

Good article.

You can criticise Davey-C for a few things but he has got a lot right. Small wonder that they took a majority and are catching up with labour in Scotland.

[shaun.lawson]

http://new.spectator.co.uk/2015/11/paris...such-risk/

"Europe's chaos vindicates decisions Britain has made
For a country to tolerate Britain's level of immigration with no far-right backlash is nothing short of extraordinary"

Good article.

You can criticise Davey-C for a few things but he has got a lot right. Small wonder that they took a majority and are catching up with labour in Scotland.

Two things I'd take issue with there:

1. Ukip is not "proudly anti-racist". It pretends not to be racist; the reality is most of its members are extremely racist, and Farage's comments get closer to the bone all the time.

2. The "economic miracle" and "employment boom". The 'boom' is in poorly paid, insecure, short term labour. The moment there's a downturn, those jobs will simply vanish, and we'll be straight back to square one. The recovery's built on sand.

As I see it, as we're not in the euro, we should actually have done and be doing far, far better than we are. All economies recover eventually, and I can't give Osborne much credit for that basic point: especially given he's repeating so many previous mistakes re: property bubbles and consumer debt.

But all that said: are we in a better position than much of Europe? Yes. Mostly because of retaining sterling; also because multi-culturalism remains a net positive in the UK, and complements our flexible markets very well overall. It's just that there are more valid questions over multi-culturalism and its long term consequences now than at any previous point.

I would agree that Cameron's stance over the refugee/migrant crisis has been vindicated too - but I still think he's a slippery little prick.

[Mr A]

http://www.sunnation.co.uk/are-you-sure-...ageandlink
"ARE YOU SURE YOU'VE NEVER SEEN THE ‘DISARM THE POLICE' LETTER MR MCDONNELL?"

The Shadow IRA supporting Chancellor is getting pelters for a letter he allegedly helped pen calling for Mi5 to be disbanded