'Wings Over TalkHearts' Politics Thread

Mikey · 06-05-2020, 11:15 AM

Imagine it'd been a Yes vote back then and our first President or whatever we'd be calling it would have been a legit beast Crowe

**Jeff Resnick** · 06-05-2020, 11:18 AM

(06-05-2020, 11:05 AM)Morph Wrote: Not really, I have my doubts that they'll continue to exist if independence happened. There will likely be a cross over period that they oversee but I don't see decades of the SNP being in after indyp nah.

I think there's a big chance the party will implode once independence is achieved, there are far too many people in there with different ideas on how the country should be run. They're only united because they want independence. We're already starting to see divisions grow with cunts like Cherry and I'd be surprised if they all choose to work for the same party.

Just find this whole â€œI'm not wanting an SNP gvtâ€ extremely short sighted tbh.

(06-05-2020, 11:08 AM)S.J. Wrote: Definitely not true. Lots of votes for the SNP are to secure independence. As soon as it's achieved they will lose enough votes that would usher in a coalition or at least a minority government. The Scottish Parliament is designed for minority governments/coalitions but right now SNP is hoovering up so many votes because independence trumps any other politics for people.

I would immediately vote for a non-unionist Scottish Labour, Scottish socialist or Green Party.

I'd be very excited to join new political parties created in an independent Scotland.

I agree with the above. Its been obvious, for many years, that the SNP are a 'broad brush' party with divisions regarding their politics, even within the main independence goal. I'd be very surprised if they lasted much longer than one term in an Independent Scotland. The best way to get rid of the SNP is vote independence.

(06-05-2020, 11:10 AM)Pete Seeger Wrote: I'd vote green 100% of the time in an independent Scotland. I'll vote SNP until that's achieved.

I'm already voting Green, where possible, though along with SJ, I'm keen to see what parties emerge in an Independent Scotland.

**CritchSmile** · 06-05-2020, 11:19 AM

(06-05-2020, 11:13 AM)Makween Wrote: The yes movement prior to 2014 was the first time I've felt excited and energised by a political movement in my life. Although I always realised Scotland wouldn't immediately become a socialist utopia post-independence, I'd say that in the past year or so I've become increasingly concerned at how reactionary a fairly large part of the broader yes movement (i.e. people who vote yes/support independence beyond those who drove the movement in 2014) seem to be. I do have some concerns over how socially conservative an independent Scotland might be tbh.

Scottish left wing politics has always been rooted in socially conservative traditions such as trade unionism, religious morality. The problem with progressive liberalism is that they often fold under pressure.

Yes, it will be hard for a farmer in Elgin to overly care about the trans movement, but they will have a moralistic take on what is right and wrong especially within land and labour. It might be hard for a diddy from Markinch to care about black lives matter but they sure as hell know Thatcher is a cunt. This kind of indignant attitude protects us from the online right wing propaganda that is being fed into everyone's homes.

**Del-icious** · 06-05-2020, 11:20 AM

(06-05-2020, 11:13 AM)Makween Wrote: The yes movement prior to 2014 was the first time I've felt excited and energised by a political movement in my life. Although I always realised Scotland wouldn't immediately become a socialist utopia post-independence, I'd say that in the past year or so I've become increasingly concerned at how reactionary a fairly large part of the broader yes movement (i.e. people who vote yes/support independence beyond those who drove the movement in 2014) seem to be. I do have some concerns over how socially conservative an independent Scotland might be tbh.

Edit: also suspect Mikey's right that, if nothing else, the SNP would have a grace period of at least one term after independence, and probably more. They might struggle in a context in which they'd have to take full ownership of all of their own policies, though.

Aye there is that. I think a lot of people do think we'll suddenly become this socialist haven for progressive Europeans but people will be in for a shock. Indyp will only be the start of it and I doubt we'll ever see the country we want in our lifetimes.

It's important to take that first step tho imo or we'll never even begin to shake off Tory rule where it's unwanted Jezza

Vieri · 06-05-2020, 11:28 AM

If we manage to somehow create a shitter society than Boris led rUK then we would have really outdone ourselves.

I'm the same as the two posters above in that I most likely wouldn't vote for the SNP in an independent Scotland. Green I'd imagine. I can't envisage the SNP gaining a majority government in any sort of proportional voting system.

**Shuto Makino** · 06-05-2020, 11:40 AM

(06-05-2020, 11:19 AM)S.J. Wrote: Scottish left wing politics has always been rooted in socially conservative traditions such as trade unionism, religious morality. The problem with progressive liberalism is that they often fold under pressure.

Yes, it will be hard for a farmer in Elgin to overly care about the trans movement, but they will have a moralistic take on what is right and wrong especially within land and labour. It might be hard for a diddy from Markinch to care about black lives matter but they sure as hell know Thatcher is a cunt. This kind of indignant attitude protects us from the online right wing propaganda that is being fed into everyone's homes.

I agree with this to an extent, but think you might be being overly optimistic. My sense is that part of why the bottom fell out of the Labour vote so completely, even during the Corbyn project, was that once the emotional tie to Labour was lost, people realised that an emotional tie was largely all it was - I'm not convinced Scottish people are as economically left wing as you're implying. Clearly that wasn't the only reason: people also stayed away from Labour because Labour wouldn't support independence, and while there might not be an emotional tie to supporting Labour, there certainly is an emotional tie to hating the Tories.

It's difficult to measure these things, but I'm not convinced Scotland would vote in a left-wing party post-independence, either economically or socially. I'm still pro-independence because I still think we'd be a lot better off than we will be under the Tory governments the English will probably always vote in, but in a general sense I'd say I no longer have much faith that we're going to see a better world whatever happens.

**Big Physical Acey** · 06-05-2020, 11:45 AM

Vieri voting for the cyclists' party Monty Chuckle

What a time to be alive.

Vieri · 06-05-2020, 11:55 AM

(06-05-2020, 11:45 AM)Acey Exotic Wrote: Vieri voting for the cyclists' party What a time to be alive.

Cycling needs reformed in this country, and it's something I'd expect the Green Party to try and address. Or if no reform was possible, any party that promised to bring in mandatory cycling tests for baldy Lycra nonces they'd have my vote sewn up Piggy

**CritchSmile** · (Edited 06-05-2020, 12:13 PM by CritchSmile.)

(06-05-2020, 11:40 AM)Makween Wrote: I agree with this to an extent, but think you might be being overly optimistic. My sense is that part of why the bottom fell out of the Labour vote so completely, even during the Corbyn project, was that once the emotional tie to Labour was lost, people realised that an emotional tie was largely all it was - I'm not convinced Scottish people are as economically left wing as you're implying. Clearly that wasn't the only reason: people also stayed away from Labour because Labour wouldn't support independence, and while there might not be an emotional tie to supporting Labour, there certainly is an emotional tie to hating the Tories.

It's difficult to measure these things, but I'm not convinced Scotland would vote in a left-wing party post-independence, either economically or socially. I'm still pro-independence because I still think we'd be a lot better off than we will be under the Tory governments the English will probably always vote in, but in a general sense I'd say I no longer have much faith that we're going to see a better world whatever happens.

Sorry I think you misunderstood me - I don't have a strong view on how economically left wing Scottish people are. My point was that Scotland being more to the left is tied to traditions such as; historical national myth (e.g. Robert Burns, Clearances) residual religious morality (the presbyterianistic moral idea of what is right and wrong) and a stronger, more recent connection to past agriculturial and industrial labour.

So this is all rooted in tradition and a lot of the above can be argued to be small 'c' conservatism. It provides strong roots that allows things such as left wing economics as you mention to be considered more "common sense" in the minds of average Scots compared to the English liberal tradition that is demonstrated historically by characters such as Burke and Mill.

Supplement this with a large historic irish immigrant population who associate themselves with the irish struggle (socialist in it's nature - James Connolly as an icon) and those in the highlands who still feel what they would consider scarring injustices of what happened at Glencoe and the Stuarts and subsequently scarred the landscape - many of whom come from historic crofting backgrounds and have personally felt the generational effects of this. A lot of this myth is captured in our ceilidh music that from a very young age we all dance to at weddings and functions etc... again, very traditional and looking to an almost agrarian past with nostalgia.

Scotland as a left wing country is really nothing to do whether someone is more Keyensian or Hayekian, it's the subconscious environment that we have all been raised in and that's why I value the socially conservative left wing politics of our country more than the progressive aspects of it. The youth will always drive through progressive ideas and I think this national psyche and environment we have stumbled upon, in fact provides a decent foundation for at least a few progreesive ideas to see the light of day, at least compared to some other countries.

**Shuto Makino** · (08-21-2017, 01:25 PM)

(06-05-2020, 12:00 PM)S.J. Wrote: Sorry I think you misunderstood me - I don't have a strong view on how economically left wing Scottish people are. My point was that Scotland being more to the left is tied to traditions such as; historical national myth (e.g. Robert Burns, Clearances) residual religious morality (the presbyterianistic moral idea of what is right and wrong) and a stronger, more recent connection to past agriculturial and industrial labour.

So this is all rooted in tradition and a lot of the above can be argued to be small 'c' conservatism. It provides strong roots that allows things such as left wing economics as you mention to be considered more "common sense" in the minds of average Scots compared to the English liberal tradition that is demonstrated historically by characters such as Burke and Mill.

Supplement this with a large historic irish immigrant population who associate themselves with the irish struggle (socialist in it's nature - James Connolly as an icon) and those in the highlands who still feel what they would consider scarring injustices of what happened at Glencoe and the Stuarts and subsequently scarred the landscape - many of whom come from historic crofting backgrounds and have personally felt the generational effects of this. A lot of this myth is captured in our ceilidh music that from a very young age we all dance to at weddings and functions etc... again, very traditional and looking to an almost agrarian past with nostalgia.

Scotland as a left wing country is really nothing to do whether someone is more Keyensian or Hayekian, it's the subconscious environment that we have all been raised in and that's why I value the socially conservative left wing politics of our country more than the progressive aspects of it. The youth will always drive through progressive ideas and I think this national psyche and environment we have stumbled upon, in fact provides a decent foundation for at least a few progreesive ideas to see the light of day, at least compared to some other countries.

I think we're at cross purposes here.

You're talking about the cultural roots of left wing sentiment in Scotland, and while I largely agree with much of what you're saying, my point was that I think much of what you're referencing is functionally dead. If I'd been talking about a 'Scottish left' which was socially conservative in some ways, I'd probably agree with you that that was something to value, but my point was precisely that I'm not sure there is a Scottish left any more in the way people think. I don't think people will vote for left wing economic policies and I'm not sure of how many will vote for social liberalism (which, at least theoretically, shouldn't even be considered 'left wing').

The point I was trying to make, maybe not all that well, with regard to emotional connections to e.g. hating the Tories, was really central to what I was saying. I think that, in terms of our cultural memories, there's an emotional connection to the kinds of history you're referencing, but that it's steadily being eroded and already might not be strong enough to influence voting behaviour. So we have these histories, and people are proud of them, but if they're not going to make people vote left economically or socially then they might not amount to much more than empty signifiers at this point.

I'd like to think that I'm wrong, and that in an independent Scotland a movement/party could form around people like Mhairi Black and Paul Sweeney, who would hopefully realise post-independence that there's much more uniting than dividing them politically. I'm just not sure that 'Scotland as a left-wing country' amounts to much more than reminding everyone how much we hate the Tories while voting for what is basically a centrist party.