'Wings Over TalkHearts' Politics Thread

[CritchSmile]

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It’s an extremely low bar, but possibly Scott’s finest posts in this thread today.

Folk will think that I’m out buzzing for Indy reading it but I’m weary and demoralised from the last few years too. However, self-determination isn’t a fad and I know I’ll feel the same at 80 as I did at 25.

[Del-icious]

I was 20 years old for Indy 1, I’m now 32. Safe to say my outlook on things have changed aye. I want independence, I don’t know if I want it at absolutely any cost though.

Brexit showed what happens when you jump in 2 footed to something that had 0 plan and folk have suffered immensely from it. Poverty has increased and in turn fascism has risen. I don’t want that in an independent Scotland.

If the pro Indy movement can’t answer some huge questions that went unanswered from the first time round that essentially killed it for us then what’s the point? You can call me a sceptic or whatever pish you want, I am demanding more from the people who are proposing this stuff because of how it failed last time and seeing first hand what happens when you leave a union with a terrible deal. If we get another rejected referendum in the near future then it’s probably curtains for it ever happening in my lifetime so I don’t want some half baked shite like last time.

Ive also read Connolly thanks I have my views on trade unionism because of him and is the only way I realistically see to properly unite working class people together to see their common enemy. Don’t think Indy does that in isolation tbh.

[CritchSmile]

Westminster is about to sell the NHS to palantir where you and your future children will lose their own body autonomy forever and you are democratically powerless to change that in this constitutional setup.

And people are like “but I’m not in the mood of an independent scotland the now, maybe later - Idon’t want to be able to vote for my own government at this juncture of history”

[CritchSmile]

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I was 20 years old for Indy 1, I’m now 32.  Safe to say my outlook on things have changed aye.  I want independence, I don’t know if I want it at absolutely any cost though.

Brexit showed what happens when you jump in 2 footed to something that had 0 plan and folk have suffered immensely from it.  Poverty has increased and in turn fascism has risen.  I don’t want that in an independent Scotland.

If the pro Indy movement can’t answer some huge questions that went unanswered from the first time round that essentially killed it for us then what’s the point?  You can call me a sceptic or whatever pish you want, I am demanding more from the people who are proposing this stuff because of how it failed last time and seeing first hand what happens when you leave a union with a terrible deal.

Ive also read Connolly thanks   I have my views on trade unionism because of him and is the only way I realistically see to properly unite working class people together to see their common enemy.  Don’t think Indy does that in isolation tbh.

The reason I mentioned Connolly specifically () rather than some other random marxist was because he believed in nationalist inspired socialism through syndicalism.and yes - at any cost. Read again.

[Zizou]

I don’t have anywhere near the enthusiasm I had for it in 2014. It was a different time and there were very charismatic people fronting it. Since then life has slapped us about the chops constantly with pandemics, ever declining quality of life and creeping closer and closer to WW3. Not to mention AI being on the verge of transforming everything.

It is true though that the polling is as good as it’s ever been for Indy. Farage in Westminster would probably be a god send for the SNP. Saying that, it’s also lower on the list of priorities for voters now. That seems about right to me on an anecdotal level. People want away from the UK but it’s not a burning issue.

I’ve become quite politically disengaged over the past few years. Probably just different priorities in life now. Nearly never voted there. Be interesting to see if they can galvanise people like me (although I would 100% vote yes regardless).

[CritchSmile]

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I don’t have anywhere near the enthusiasm I had for it in 2014. It was a different time and there were very charismatic people fronting it. Since then life has slapped us about the chops constantly with pandemics, ever declining quality of life and creeping closer and closer to WW3. Not to mention AI being on the verge of transforming everything.

It is true though that the polling is as good as it’s ever been for Indy. Farage in Westminster would probably be a god send for the SNP. Saying that, it’s also lower on the list of priorities for voters now. That seems about right to me on an anecdotal level. People want away from the UK but it’s not a burning issue.

I’ve become quite politically disengaged over the past few years. Probably just different priorities in life now. Nearly never voted there. Be interesting to see if they can galvanise people like me (although I would 100% vote yes regardless).

Bro, I feel exactly the same.

It’s clear the elites have us almost exactly where they want us.

Keep holding on to that last grain of resistance with everything you’ve got.

[Del-icious]

The majority of Scotland aren’t going to vote for Indy at any cost so it’s not a realistic way to approach this. Folk aren’t going to take some principled approach to Indy when they are forking out £1500 a month on rent, struggling to find childcare, can’t get appointments at their doctors, a weekly shop coming in over £100. They’re not going to be listening to some IRA guy* from the 1900s views on self determination.

You might turn round and say this sort of thing would be eased in an independent Scotland which it might aye but it’s the people who are proposing this job to tell us why and imo looking back they done a bad job of it. You then add Brexit into the mix and even though my argument would be “we knew it was bad and got it anyway” most folk are just going to not want to have another repeat of it.

You can’t just tell people they are daft for not wanting it you need to make a fleshed out case of how it is going to benefit them. I just can’t buy this argument that Sturgeon sterilised Indy. Basically everyone I talk to irl references Brexit taking the wind out their sails. I don’t think it’s killed it in folk but there is now imo rightfully a lot more apprehension so that’s a new challenge that needs to be addressed by the movement that we didn’t have in 2014. I would say it’s more to do with what AP says rather than Sturgeon.

*not my views on Connolly, I’m saying this for effect before you jump down my throat

[CritchSmile]

The majority of Scotland aren’t going to vote for Indy at any cost so it’s not a realistic way to approach this. Folk aren’t going to take some principled approach to Indy when they are forking out £1500 a month on rent, struggling to find childcare, can’t get appointments at their doctors, a weekly shop coming in over £100. They’re not going to be listening to some IRA guy* from the 1900s views on self determination.

You might turn round and say this sort of thing would be eased in an independent Scotland which it might aye but it’s the people who are proposing this job to tell us why and imo looking back they done a bad job of it. You then add Brexit into the mix and even though my argument would be “we knew it was bad and got it anyway” most folk are just going to not want to have another repeat of it.

You can’t just tell people they are daft for not wanting it you need to make a fleshed out case of how it is going to benefit them. I just can’t buy this argument that Sturgeon sterilised Indy. Basically everyone I talk to irl references Brexit taking the wind out their sails. I don’t think it’s killed it in folk but there is now imo rightfully a lot more apprehension so that’s a new challenge that needs to be addressed by the movement that we didn’t have in 2014.

*not my views on Connolly, I’m saying this for effect before you jump down my throat

I disagree with almost everything you've said here. I don't know where to start and requires alot more time than I have to break it down coherently. I don't have that time to address it so here are some bullet points that don't do it justice:

- You are essentially setting the bar of an independent Scotland to dismantle a failing capitialist system by requiring it to cure poverty and end financial hardship.

- Taking that view, you voted communist party which is absolutely logical. Lets take that forward. If you look at the material conditions of communist projects attempted so far, China, Russia, latin american states, most recently and succesfully, Traore in Burkina Faso, they emerge from nationalist struggle/statist projects. Ironically, leaning into a more internationalist marxism isn't a more working class approach, it's in my view more bourgois and idealist, speaking to french topian socialism and libertarianism/anarchism (which I'm sympathetic too also). All global south sites of class struggle will tell western europeans that these projects and movements to overthrow capital have to begin with a territory and a people (land and labour). This is an enduring debate in marxist circles, i'm sure I don't habe to say which side Connolly landed on.

- I'm inviting you therefore, to not view Scottish independence as a cure to global capital forces driving down living standards and human dignity, i'm asking you to view it as a mechanism whereby we will have democratic control to manage, control and react to this decline (e.g. not giving Palantir NHS contracts)

- You thinking I think the independence strategy should be to tell people to read Connolly is a rheotrical fallacy so I'll ignore that

- Generally, yes now that a pro indy majority has been secured in Holyrood, the guantlet has been laid down for the political arm of indy (SNP predominantly) to produce a fresh, more convincing case for independence, of course, otherwise, it will fall short once more. There job is also for them to do their part in reinvigroating a dormant but huge indy supporting/indy sympathetic base which is waiting for something to inspire them. Finally, we also have a responsibilty too, to contribute to imagining how scottish independence in 2026-2030 would respond to rapdily deterioating social conditions. This is also an opportunity.

- Post Brexit, the desire for Scottish independence was never stronger, almost every seat in Westminster was returned SNP as a clear mandate to Nicola Sturgeon to pursue IndyRef2. We were all let down by this. The idea that post-brexit vote, no one wanted indy is, well, I don't know what to say about that. Not my recollection. There was again a spike in Indy demand when Boris was killing people during covid by denying the existence of a pandemic, putting our most frail and vulnerable loved ones at risk. Again, squandered because Sturgeon has personal matters to attend to (namely framing Alex Salmond by coercing staff into false testimonies and general criminal perjury related behaviour. Ultimately, killing one of the most articulate indy leaders from stress/heart condition.

- There is also a general assumption that there will be somehow more stability for people if Scotland doesn't become independent. The evidence in the past 20 years suggests this is not a strong argument. I can guarantee instabilty in the process of Scottish citiizens coming together and designing an independent nation. I can also guarantee instability if we don't.

[Del-icious]

I don’t want an independent Scotland to dismantle the capitalist system I want the pro Indy movement to provide a far better, fleshed out plan on how people’s lives will improve because right now there are so many who have been beaten into the dirt who feel they cant sink any further. An independent Scotland will be globalist and capitalist there is no getting away from that if we look to align ourselves with the EU. Which is another one - tell us exactly the roadmap to rejoining the EU and how that will look and the consequences on our currency.

You mention dishing out NHS contracts to palantir, I want to know categorically how public healthcare in an independent Scotland will be secured and how it will be funded. I want to know how welfare will operate, I want to know how folk who rely heavily on benefits to get by won’t fall through the net and what that transition looks like from UK welfare to Scottish. Will public pensions in Scotland be the same value as they are in the UK and if not how do you support pensioners who suffer because of that?

Also I obviously didn’t vote communist I voted SNP x2.


Immediately after Brexit there was a backlash and gain in popularity for Indy because we were delivered something we rejected and more so were told was something we were safe from if we rejected independence. That is before the reality of Brexit actually starts to take effect on our day to day lives then people start to think about what Indy could look like in Scotland if it plays out similarly.

I don’t disagree with how you view it I just don’t think it’s how the majority are going to see it, what you say makes sense but don’t think it necessarily translates through to ordinary non academic folk. If Indy is to be successful the movement has to do far more giving concrete framework of how things are going to work - even if that is an impossible task surrounding some things.


I don’t really think it’s that controversial to say we need to right the wrongs from last time and for me that was being too vague on some huge issues.

[CritchSmile]

I want to know categorically how public healthcare in an independent Scotland will be secured and how it will be funded. I want to know how welfare will operate, I want to know how folk who rely heavily on benefits to get by won’t fall through the net and what that transition looks like from UK welfare to Scottish.

I want a Bugati and Hearts to win the Champions League.

If that's your pre-condition now for supporting Scottish independence then welcome to the tired, recycled arguments of 2013 Better Together that much more articulate people than me have dealt with ad nauseum.

You don't expect the current constitutional set up to predict and guarantee the future. In my view you are creating an unreasonable bar in the construction of a new nation state to justify your maturing conservatism.

What was that indy song again? Fear over Hope.

Good day, sir.

[Del-icious]

Maturing conservatism

Good day indeed.

[CritchSmile]

Maturing conservatism

Good day indeed.

You think this is a political dig calling you a Tory or something, but I'm speaking squarely philsophically and culturally, on the spectrum of what it means to be 'progressive' (risk to progress') and what it means to be 'conservative' (fear of change).

It's easier for other people to point it out, than to notice it yourself. We absolutely have entered a culturally conservative era, where people will try to protect whatever they have now, than risk to progress and this is driven by exactly the dropping social conditons. It spreads psycholgically through the populace, AP distilled it all very accurately in his most recent post.

[Del-icious]

How would losing or harming free public healthcare in Scotland be progressive?

[CritchSmile]

How would losing or harming free public healthcare in Scotland be progressive?

You've lost me here, mate.

[Del-icious]

I think it’s quite straight forward tbh - you are insinuating I am being conservative (fear of change) because I’d like to know how we will deliver free public healthcare in Scotland. On top of that I’m concerned about how we will make sure the most vulnerable in society won’t fall even deeper into poverty esp people who rely so heavily month to month on benefits. I don’t fear change but I’m not backing change for changes sake. I back change to improve people’s lives.

These are big risks from making a huge constitutional change with Indy, so how can it be considered progressive to batter on without having a concrete framework to deal with these issues, public healthcare suffers and people slide further into poverty because their safety net they had in the UK has gone?  Surely being progressive means improving people’s lives not just changing them?  Remember I’m not anti indyp, I want it for Scotland but I don’t want it if it means things are going to fall apart.  If it’s silly for me to think things are going to fall apart then the people making these proposals need to let us all know how huge issues like the NHS are going to be handled.


Which is why I backed the SNP again because I suppose I want to see what is proposed from a second campaign but it needs to be way better than 2014.

[CritchSmile]

I never said that a citizen asking how healthcare is funded = conservative. I don't have further time to argue against a strawman fallacy.

Carefully writing out multiple replies arguing in favour of the construction of a nation state and associated government apparatus is anarchist? Good lord.

I think what's happened here is because i used the word conservative in a genuine manner to describe your shift on independence, you've become defensive and tried to call me an anarchist to 'get me back' (?).

This debate started off well but is descending down a childish route, now.

I'm out. Alsalam ealaykum

[Del-icious]

Was just a wee joke (hence the smiley) but forgot who I was chatting to for a minute and realised you wouldn’t laugh about it so I deleted it.

No you didn’t say that a citizen asking how healthcare will be funded = conservative, you specifically mentioned my “maturing conservatism” on the back of me specifically asking questions like how will healthcare look and be funded. I still don’t see how it’s progressive to vote for something that could see things we have like free public healthcare going backwards.

NHS is probably the most important thing for me so im not just going to vote for something that could end up fucking that in Scotland. The SNP aren’t socialists and they’re the ones who will mould a lot of the foundations for how an independent Scotland will operate so apologies if I don’t just trust them to make sure we have all these things after the fact.

[Felix]

How would losing or harming free public healthcare in Scotland be progressive?

Is that what the extra 1% on our income tax is used to partially fund? Not really free....

[Del-icious]

The entirety of the UK has access to the NHS.

[Felix]

The entirety of the UK has access to the NHS.

Very astute of you, however only Scots get prescriptions that are funded by the 1% extra income tax we pay.