'Wings Over TalkHearts' Politics Thread

[Fire Doinks]

You might think it's wreckless but as it stands I don't think these things matter.   When there are kids being washed up on beaches on the Med we just need to take these people in and worry about the rest after.
With all the wealth and resources available in Europe (and the UK specifically) no one can tell me we can't accommodate more than a couple of hundred people.

Well kids have been washing up on beaches for a while, even more have been getting blown apart in the suburbs of Damascus and many more than that are living in horrific conditions in makeshift camps in Lebanon etc.

I don't think it's wreckless and haven't said it is. I'm just posing these questions as they're not ones that I've seen any of these immigration fearing/right wing people ask, when it would be a much better way of presenting their concerns rather than appearing like a hate mob, and they aren't factors that I think the left wing pro-immigration/asylum people are even considering.

My position is that as a developed country we do have a duty to assist and provide for those escaping war and/or persecution, however I think that quite a lot of the world is pretty fucked right now and we could be taking on a task bigger than we are capable of dealing with long term. I'm concerned for the welfare of these people, but I'm even more concerned that nobody in a position of authority seems capable of formulating a coherent plan for dealing with this massive issue.

The long term implications cannot simply be an afterthought and I don't think that makes someone a fascist for considering that.

[Fire Doinks]

All valid points, but the situation is urgent. Germany are taking on 800,000 and shitebag Britain a couple of hundred. We have to do more regardless of the long term issues.

Totally agree that Britain needs to do more, it's obvious. Even a lack of political appetite and an on-going dispute with the EU should not explain away our lack of planning or unwillingness to take people in.

When I was talking about ghettoisation and that stuff I'm not just talking about the UK but all of Europe. There are some in Sweden that are becoming increasingly worried about this being the biggest social issue in their country in years to come.

It's unquestionable, and in my mind an understandable view, that many people across Europe fear losing what made these countries attractive places to resettle in the first place. We can't simply ignore their concerns or dismiss them as racists, that's not the country or the continent I recognise and I do believe that most people are compasionate and want to help, it doesn't mean they can't be fearful.

[Zizou]

When I was talking about ghettoisation and that stuff I'm not just talking about the UK but all of Europe. There are some in Sweden that are becoming increasingly worried about this being the biggest social issue in their country in years to come.

It's unquestionable, and in my mind an understandable view, that many people across Europe fear losing what made these countries attractive places to resettle in the first place. We can't simply ignore their concerns or dismiss them as racists, that's not the country or the continent I recognise and I do believe that most people are compasionate and want to help, it doesn't mean they can't be fearful.

On the other hand, there are also those who believe it will benefit Germany for example to bring in young, hard working people as their population is ageing.

The only issue that matters right now is to stop people dying.

[Papin]

I do find it interesting that we seem to take no (real) consideration when bombing the shit out of some place.
But we then need to think long and hard about taking in the resultant refugees.

I get all the concerns about long term social factors but what's the alternative - just stand back and watch? The damage in doing nothing is far worse IMO.

I think Cameron's statement today is probably one of the most ill-judged by any Prime Minster. He says that our main concern is peace and stability in the Middle East - no shit, that sounds easy enough.

[Zizou]

I do find it interesting that we seem to take no (real) consideration when bombing the shit out of some place.  
But we then need to think long and hard about taking in the resultant refugees.

I get all the concerns about long term social factors but what's the alternative - just stand back and watch? The damage in doing nothing is far worse IMO.

I think Cameron's statement today is probably one of the most ill-judged by any Prime Minster.  He says that our main concern is peace and stability in the Middle East - no shit, that sounds easy enough.

His incompetence on this matter in particular is staggering. An embarrassment to Britain. A laughing stock all over Europe.

[Papin]

Retro approach from the Czechs

[Sarkozabal]

Found this very interesting if depressing. Have to admit I hadn't even considered that the boats would cost so much more than flights.

[Fire Doinks]

On the other hand, there are also those who believe it will benefit Germany for example to bring in young, hard working people as their population is ageing.

The only issue that matters right now is to stop people dying.

Does their economy have the capacity to create work for 500,000+ people? I have no position on this, I'm just wondering.

I was in Frankfurt not that long ago and was actually shocked by the number of homeless from Romania (probably), literally lining the streets in a couple of places and one community centre where 20-30 people were sleeping on the steps outside. Based on that and some of the media reports I've seen I'm not surprised that the reaction is very mixed and extreme in both directions on this issue. What I saw there didn't look like a better life for those people at least.

I disagree that it's the only issue, of course it is the primary one but resettlement without structure or a long-term plan could create many more problems. I'm not sure we're prepared to deal with the consequences of this in the decades to come. We are of course talking about Syria, but including other issues and other forms of migration across Europe in this discussion, probably why it's been so confusing publicly.

[Fire Doinks]

I do find it interesting that we seem to take no (real) consideration when bombing the shit out of some place.  
But we then need to think long and hard about taking in the resultant refugees.

I get all the concerns about long term social factors but what's the alternative - just stand back and watch? The damage in doing nothing is far worse IMO.

I think Cameron's statement today is probably one of the most ill-judged by any Prime Minster.  He says that our main concern is peace and stability in the Middle East - no shit, that sounds easy enough.

Well none of our bombing can be directly attributed to this current wave of refugees from Syria, in fact some might argue that the international community's indecisiveness has inflamed the situation and protracted the civilian exodus.

I'm guessing you must be referring to Libya, and would suggest that you have a very short memory if you think that campaign was undertaken with no real consideration or humanitarian perspective. I would add that most of these civilians being talked about now are taking different routes to Europe, and that particular child making the front pages died trying to cross the Aegean from Turkey.

These people are coming whether governments like it or not, no country in Europe appears to have a strong idea of how many they can accomodate and the processing of them will take a long long time. It's all well and good to just believe it's the right thing to do, morally I have a great deal of sympathy for that position, but I can't simply ignore the fact that there appears to be a total lack of provisioning across Europe. It can't be official policy of a government to accept them until they are capable of meeting the standards of care that come with such a policy, that is what I think is behind the indecisiveness because until they agree they aren't officially responsible for the wellbeing of these individuals.

[Fire Doinks]

Found this very interesting if depressing. Have to admit I hadn't even considered that the boats would cost so much more than flights.

Good video, and so is #17 after it.

He's kinda stating the obvious though, of course this messed up and self-contradicting rule on asylum is made to dissuade or prevent people entering. This is because Europe has put laws in place for the ethical and humanitarian standards it feels it should meet, but doesn't have the capability to put those ethics in to practice for fear of chaos. Until that is agreed then we and the refugees will suffer through this purgatory like situation.

[GeoffK1874]

You have to ask what the point of the EU is when it has no clue over the basics of government - border protection and protection from conflict. It fucked up in the Balkans, allowing genocide in Bosnia. Now it cannot control the movement of people, many of whom are desperate and fleeing persecution, yet failing to realise why people were cynical to begin with because they've done fuck all about human trafficking, allowing effective slave labour to occur with sociopathic gangmasters and employers.

For a start, they need to suspend Schnegen and control borders between countries (Britain and Ireland are obviously not in it which is why it is a bit trickier to get in). Then refugees need to be dissipated throughout the EU with each country taking its fair share.

Finally, it might need military intervention on a wider scale against ISIS to reduce refugees in the first place. Easier said than done though.

[Sarkozabal]

Good video, and so is #17 after it.

He's kinda stating the obvious though, of course this messed up and self-contradicting rule on asylum is made to dissuade or prevent people entering. This is because Europe has put laws in place for the ethical and humanitarian standards it feels it should meet, but doesn't have the capability to put those ethics in to practice for fear of chaos. Until that is agreed then we and the refugees will suffer through this purgatory like situation.

Yeah, I actually got to that one through #17, was going to link #17 until I realised it was 2/3 months old so the figures are probably a bit out today. Agree with you that the debate over airlines was fairly obvious, would have liked him to spend a bit more time looking at the cost element. There's very much a media portrayal that refugees arrive in Europe with absolutely nothing, obviously that's a deliberate exaggeration but I was surprised that he reckons it's as much as €1,000 per person for an extremely dangerous sea voyage.

[Charlie Kelly]

Does their economy have the capacity to create work for 500,000+ people? I have no position on this, I'm just wondering.

I was in Frankfurt not that long ago and was actually shocked by the number of homeless from Romania (probably), literally lining the streets in a couple of places and one community centre where 20-30 people were sleeping on the steps outside. Based on that and some of the media reports I've seen I'm not surprised that the reaction is very mixed and extreme in both directions on this issue. What I saw there didn't look like a better life for those people at least.

I disagree that it's the only issue, of course it is the primary one but resettlement without structure or a long-term plan could create many more problems. I'm not sure we're prepared to deal with the consequences of this in the decades to come. We are of course talking about Syria, but including other issues and other forms of migration across Europe in this discussion, probably why it's been so confusing publicly.

Assuming those people were Romanians (or other EU migrants), they were economic migrants and are a different argument. What we're talking about here are quite a lot of people who most probably had good jobs in Syria or the countries that they came from but because of the war have been forced out. These people can contribute to society, but because they're from the Middle East they're turned away by most of the EU. I realise the majority of the general public are unable to distinguish between the two unfortunately which is a problem (not suggesting you can't either)

I agree with your points about ghettoisation and it's obviously a concern, but what's happening right now needs to be addressed. Having said that I've absolutely zero confidence in it being addressed any time soon.

[Fire Doinks]

Assuming those people were Romanians (or other EU migrants), they were economic migrants and are a different argument. What we're talking about here are quite a lot of people who most probably had good jobs in Syria or the countries that they came from but because of the war have been forced out. These people can contribute to society, but because they're from the Middle East they're turned away by most of the EU. I realise the majority of the general public are unable to distinguish between the two unfortunately which is a problem (not suggesting you can't either)

I agree with your points about ghettoisation and it's obviously a concern, but what's happening right now needs to be addressed. Having said that I've absolutely zero confidence in it being addressed any time soon.

I'm pretty sure they were Romanian and it's not a different argument because the point I was making was one of quality of life, social integration and the perception of them by native citizens. The issues I'm discussing are the same for those low income migrants as they are for Syrian refugees once they touch down in a German city.

It will be addressed, just at a very laboured pace with resistance at every possible point. Geoff's post cuts through a lot of the crap and gets down to what probably needs to and will happen. I was more talking about what life will actually be like for these people once they are officially recognised in a European country for years to come.

[shaun.lawson]

You have to ask what the point of the EU is when it has no clue over the basics of government - border protection and protection from conflict. It fucked up in the Balkans, allowing genocide in Bosnia. Now it cannot control the movement of people, many of whom are desperate and fleeing persecution, yet failing to realise why people were cynical to begin with because they've done fuck all about human trafficking, allowing effective slave labour to occur with sociopathic gangmasters and employers.

For a start, they need to suspend Schnegen and control borders between countries (Britain and Ireland are obviously not in it which is why it is a bit trickier to get in). Then refugees need to be dissipated throughout the EU with each country taking its fair share.

Finally, it might need military intervention on a wider scale against ISIS to reduce refugees in the first place. Easier said than done though.

Fantastic post. One of the best I've ever read here or on JKB.

[Mr A]

You have to ask what the point of the EU is when it has no clue over the basics of government - border protection and protection from conflict. It fucked up in the Balkans, allowing genocide in Bosnia. Now it cannot control the movement of people, many of whom are desperate and fleeing persecution, yet failing to realise why people were cynical to begin with because they've done fuck all about human trafficking, allowing effective slave labour to occur with sociopathic gangmasters and employers.

For a start, they need to suspend Schnegen and control borders between countries (Britain and Ireland are obviously not in it which is why it is a bit trickier to get in). Then refugees need to be dissipated throughout the EU with each country taking its fair share.

Finally, it might need military intervention on a wider scale against ISIS to reduce refugees in the first place. Easier said than done though.

Good post, Geoff.

[PHOODLE-OUt]

@Nigel_Farage: We must also establish who is a genuine refugee and to make sure they are not an extremist from Isis or other jihadi institutions.

Just fuck off.

[Rogers Mako]

ISIS going to all that trouble when they recruit online anyway Good one Farage.

[GeoffK1874]

@Nigel_Farage: We must also establish who is a genuine refugee and to make sure they are not an extremist from Isis or other jihadi institutions.

Just fuck off.

The voice of the bloke in the pub. A boorish dickhead.

Honestly, if he stuck to being a pressure group where he actually has a strong argument as opposed to talking shite about other issues, he might actually win the European referendum. As it is, people with half a brain won't want anything to do with him or his ilk.

[Zizou]

I know ... petitions etc, but this is worth two seconds of your time.

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/105991