'Wings Over TalkHearts' Politics Thread

[Floyd]

You would have needed almost the rest of those in Scotland, who didnt vote, to vote Remain to tip it in Remain's favour.

While Scotland is quite clearly pro-EU, there's more than the pub/golf club bore who are against it. There's a fair bit resentment in fishing and farming communities, despite those areas actually doing better than they think from the EU and the subsidies they receive as a result.

This combined with the outlandish statements and claims around the financial benefits spouted by Farage & Boris swung a lot of people to vote leave too, which given the current news about their fraud makes it even more galling.

The leave campaign played the unemployed and the 'stealin' wur joabs' brigade in the North of England like a fiddle and as a result we've ended up being shafted by someone who looks like he can't even brush his own fucking hair in the morning.

[Cheeky Gnando’s]

There have been some astonishingly shite posts over the last few pages Started to type out a long reply to some of them and then thought "I can't be bovved" though

A few things I would say:

* A good few posts by Morph that were unfortunately cropped down for some selective quoting by one reply, and ignored by another. Poor.

* Can we just drop this "not Scotland's party" pish, please? A party's branding does not equate to their voters being unable to tell the difference between their country and a political party. It's both patronising nonsense and surreptitiously implies quite sinister parallels with other nationalist movements that simply don't exist. Parroting party lines and shite buzzwords off Facebook/social media echo chambers is something we should be smart enough to avoid.

* Like it or not, in the last 2 Westminster elections, the SNP have sent down a comfy majority of our elected representatives. Routinely deriding and treating them with disdain in the chamber is not simply a slight on the party and voters rightly do not see it as such. Even if it was, you can't wave it away with "it's just the SNP being shown contempt, not Scotland" when they are there representing a large proportion of Scottish voters.

* Support for independence is rising, according to all of the most recent polls. Not enough, yet, but it's at a far higher starting point than the outset of the campaign in 2014. What is not particularly high at the moment is the desire for another referendum. Tory support in Scotland went up in 2017 largely because Ruthy turned her party into a single-issue pressure group on stopping a second ref and was campaigning relentlessly from 2016 onwards with that message.

Aside from that, a couple of questions:

1) Mags, what do you mean when you say "I don't feel like anyone stands up for me...especially at Holyrood level"? Especially given you then go on to agree in a later post that FPTP is the problem, I'm a bit unclear.

2) Lawson, why do you think turnout was lower in the EU Ref in Scotland and NI than in England and Wales?

[Walter Sobchak]

You would have needed almost the rest of those in Scotland, who didnt vote, to vote Remain to tip it in Remain's favour.

While Scotland is quite clearly pro-EU, there's more than the pub/golf club bore who are against it. There's a fair bit resentment in fishing and farming communities, despite those areas actually doing better than they think from the EU and the subsidies they receive as a result.

Aye, agree, what I meant though was that for a central belt or city or town based person, they will know very few people if any in either the farming or fishing communities. We are all in our little echo chambers, and facebook hardly helps by hiding the posts by 'friends' who we might not share likes or clicks with, so for many the nearest they got to really hearing 'lets leave the EU' was from Farage, the honourable member for BBC Question Time.

Mindblowing that anyone who was involved in seafood would vote for brexit, given the huge volume of shellfish that are exported to spain and beyond. Folk sitting on holiday in spain are quite likely to be eating scottish langoustines for example.

"Two out of three: Proportion of the world's langoustines sourced in Scotland."

https://foodanddrink.scotsman.com/food/i...-industry/

Imagine the effect on that industry with additional tariffs to the EU. Interesting though, how much of that is a worldwide export - Japan, USA, but once we leave EU and quite probably, under US pressure lose protected designation status, what does that do to price?

[Walter Sobchak]

Votes with Government.

Tweets this.

https://twitter.com/JohnMannMP/status/10...9127747584

[Del-icious]

Yes you were. But you were playing to a narrative of victimhood. I'm not saying for a moment that you don't have it hard. But I do see on here, again and again, this idea that only Scotland is treated like this. It's not.

Oh fuck off Shaun. You aren't going to tell me what i was saying.

You cut off half the paragraph to write a post that suits whatever narrative you are deciding to push at the moment. Shock - the post had fuck all to do with how English people were feeling. Not once in my post did I say that every single English person supports the tories, to even suggest i did is just fucking stupid and doesn't even merit a response ffs.

Not once did i say only Scotland have it hard, but we're talking about Scotland, what changes I would like to see for Scotland and how I feel as a scottish person. Not every discussion on independence revolves around england ffs.

[Walter Sobchak]

[Picards Forehead]

Oh fuck off Shaun.  You aren't going to tell me what i was saying.

You cut off half the paragraph to write a post that suits whatever narrative you are deciding to push at the moment.  Shock - the post had fuck all to do with how English people were feeling.  Not once in my post did I say that every single English person supports the tories, to even suggest i did is just fucking stupid and doesn't even merit a response ffs.

Not once did i say only Scotland have it hard, but we're talking about Scotland, what changes I would like to see for Scotland and how I feel as a scottish person.  Not every discussion on independence revolves around england ffs.

[Big Physical Acey]

Like I said, there's never been a better time to be anti-English than right now.

[Christian Benorchgrevink]

Oh fuck off Shaun.  You aren't going to tell me what i was saying.

You cut off half the paragraph to write a post that suits whatever narrative you are deciding to push at the moment.  Shock - the post had fuck all to do with how English people were feeling.  Not once in my post did I say that every single English person supports the tories, to even suggest i did is just fucking stupid and doesn't even merit a response ffs.

Not once did i say only Scotland have it hard, but we're talking about Scotland, what changes I would like to see for Scotland and how I feel as a scottish person.  Not every discussion on independence revolves around england ffs.

Good post Morph, wasted on Shaun

[shaun.lawson]

Give there was no brexit appetite up here, I genuinely think that many thought that Remain was a fait accompli and so didn't bother voting. That anti-EU feeling you get in some parts of england isn't that prevalent up here outside of the odd pub or golf club bore.

So why did the Tory vote go up so much last year? Weren't most people on here putting it down (lazily, complacently, smugly) to the bigot vote? Are you saying those bigots are big fans of the EU?

[shaun.lawson]

* Support for independence is rising, according to all of the most recent polls. Not enough, yet, but it's at a far higher starting point than the outset of the campaign in 2014. What is not particularly high at the moment is the desire for another referendum.

2) Lawson, why do you think turnout was lower in the EU Ref in Scotland and NI than in England and Wales?

Just to take these points:

1. I find it absolutely baffling - in fact, utterly extraordinary - that support for independence isn't at 60% plus given the utter chaos in Westminster. There is no precedent for British politics falling apart in this sort of way - yet it's still only in the low or, occasionally, mid-40s? Amazing. If there isn't a groundswell for indy at such a time, when will there be? Ever?

2. Because people in Scotland and Northern Ireland didn't care as much. More fool them. More fool anyone who didn't vote.

[shaun.lawson]

In all srsns mags its great you feel part of the Union and that the British government is a voice for you and feel that they have your best interests at heart.

You need to remember though that you fit in at a certain section of society, you are a good earner, you're middle class and have a reputable job.  There's a lot of folk in the circles I am in who maybe aren't so fortunate to have all those things and just feel completely unsupported by Westminster.  Just now I feel like a lot of people look at people like me, typical Scottish people with nothing but contempt.  I feel like we're seen as a joke, a bit of an inconvienence.   I feel like there's definitely anti Scottish attitudes spread all through England now, basically just get a bit of a “back in your box” feeling from down south.

Maybe just need to think why people like me think like this, and why we don't feel the same level of support that you do.  Because something obviously isn't working for a significant portion of the country and I think the more it goes on the more and more people just become angry rather than hopeful of change.

This is Morph's whole post. I only replied to a bit of it because, given I'm only on here once a day (or once every couple of days), if I reply to all posts, you'll all be even more bored of me than I already am.

Morph: above, you say: "Just now I feel like a lot of people look at people like me, typical Scottish people with nothing but contempt. I feel like we're seen as a joke, a bit of an inconvenience. I feel like there's definitely anti Scottish attitudes spread all through England now, basically just get a bit of a “back in your box” feeling from down south".

What is this based on? Anything more than Westminster behaving as Westminster so often has? "Anti-Scottish attitudes spread all through England now" - when was the last time you were in England?

Oh, and by the way: it rather sums up this place when Morph complains to me to loud applause that "not everything is about England" after a post which speaks of "anti-Scottish attitudes spread all through England". Based on what?

[shaun.lawson]

Oh fuck off Shaun. You aren't going to tell me what i was saying.

You cut off half the paragraph to write a post that suits whatever narrative you are deciding to push at the moment. Shock - the post had fuck all to do with how English people were feeling. Not once in my post did I say that every single English person supports the tories, to even suggest i did is just fucking stupid and doesn't even merit a response ffs.

Not once did i say only Scotland have it hard, but we're talking about Scotland, what changes I would like to see for Scotland and how I feel as a scottish person. Not every discussion on independence revolves around england ffs.

So why did you say (based on methodology which I await with interest): "I feel like there's definitely anti-Scottish attitudes spread all through England now"? Why do you think you can blanketly label an entire country in such a way?

[shaun.lawson]

basically just get a bit of a “back in your box” feeling from down south.

I'm going to zone in on this bit. I make no apology for doing so. Scotland has:

- Its own Parliament

- Its own government

- Much better healthcare*

- A government that actually cares about its people in a way the UK's absolutely does not

*Just with regard to that - ages ago, before last year's election, I posted on here about what my family's experience has been of NHS mental health treatment (or lack thereof). The responses were quite remarkable. They ranged from VS (only weeks before his magical conversion to Corbyn, after years leaning Tory) and Picard suggesting I must be making it up; to others viewing it as irrelevant because it isn't like that in Scotland.

Great that it isn't like that in Scotland. Fantastic that it isn't like that in Scotland. But "back in your box"? What does England have? It's stuck with Westminster controlling everything. It's stuck with horrific inequality all over the country. It's stuck with two joke parties competing with each other to see just how much of a mess they can make of things.

The exact mental health condition which my sister has is treated in Scotland on the NHS. Lucky you; unlucky her. You have it better than we do. Yet the same victimology continues regardless. As do tropes about "anti-Scottish attitudes spread all through England now" after a month when... well, if England fans had gone into Scottish pubs, worn England shirts and and cheered on England, what would have been the reaction?

[Vieri]

So why did the Tory vote go up so much last year? Weren't most people on here putting it down (lazily, complacently, smugly) to the bigot vote? Are you saying those bigots are big fans of the EU?

Tory vote in Scotland went up so much because fat Ruth made the election all about opposing a second (Scottish independence) referendum. Pretty ridiculous really but that was the main factor IMO.

[Cheeky Gnando’s]

So why did the Tory vote go up so much last year? Weren't most people on here putting it down (lazily, complacently, smugly) to the bigot vote? Are you saying those bigots are big fans of the EU?

The bigot vote? Are you meaning Rangers fans here?

I will almost guarantee you that the “stick your independence up your arse” brigade were all voting Tory at the last election

Just to take these points:

1. I find it absolutely baffling - in fact, utterly extraordinary - that support for independence isn't at 60% plus given the utter chaos in Westminster. There is no precedent for British politics falling apart in this sort of way - yet it's still only in the low or, occasionally, mid-40s? Amazing. If there isn't a groundswell for indy at such a time, when will there be? Ever?

2. Because people in Scotland and Northern Ireland didn't care as much. More fool them. More fool anyone who didn't vote.

Thanks for the response to this.

1) I can't believe it's not a comfy majority either (and it's in the high 40s at the moment, some 15% higher than it was 4 months ago and similarly to the outset of the first ref. You'd have to ask those who were polled. Not quite my experience in the real world though - the old buggers who were always voting no are still voting no, but those undecideds and younger no voters? Less than half of the people I know, from a range of different backgrounds, are still a firm no today. Most are yes, one or two are undecided where they were absolute colours nailed to the mast jobs in 2014, and the rest remain unionists. That's obviously an experience shared by others on here and others I've spoken to irl. Meaningless on its own, but it does feel like there's more of an unsettled attitude brewing in Scotland at the moment than there was in 2014.

2. Correct. And they didn't care as much because it was a stupid fucking English referendum to satisfy a stupid fucking English party's stupid fucking power struggle. It was an English issue and the campaign was largely fought in England. Leave hadn't even set up a campaign in Scotland by the February of the referendum and I don't remember any of those fuckers coming up here to campaign on anything more than a cursory, token basis (correct me if my memory has failed me on that part, but I think Gove came up for half a day and Boris was nowhere near).

Everyone knew we would vote strongly yes, so no one bothered their arses, arguably aside from Sturgeon and one or two other Holyrood leaders. 67% is still a decent turnout (better than all but one general election in the last 25 years, anyway) and it would be easy to overstate the importance of that gap between Scotland and England anyway. What difference would it have made if Scotland had turned out at the same rate as England? Fuck all, which in part helps explain the levels of unrest now. As a country our votes didn't really matter - without the leave votes in Scotland, leave still wins, and it would have taken almost every single Scottish non-voter to turn up and vote remain to impact on the result the other way.

Tory vote in Scotland went up so much because fat Ruth made the election all about opposing a second (Scottish independence) referendum. Pretty ridiculous really but that was the main factor IMO.

This is spot on. She turned the party into a single issue pressure group, and as such managed to get people who find her politics otherwise reprehensible to vote for her. It's not indicative of much more than that. Davidson's campaign exclusively consisted of her doing a different activity each day to disguise the fact she was reeling off the exact same speel about independence and strong opposition. It was successful, but it was also transparent.

[shaun.lawson]

they didn't care as much because it was a stupid fucking English referendum to satisfy a stupid fucking English party's stupid fucking power struggle. It was an English issue and the campaign was largely fought in England.

Wait a minute. You think the United Kingdom leaving the European Union "was a stupid fucking English issue"? So why is Scotland leaving as well then? Why, for that matter, is Northern Ireland? A "stupid fucking English issue" which, um, is about to create a hard border with all manner of dreadful consequences in Ireland.

If people couldn't be arsed to educate or inform themselves, that's on them. Someone wrote a page or two back that the turnout in Scotland was lower because the outcome was seen as a foregone conclusion. The polls were 50-50 for God's sake. They were much tighter than the polls immediately before Scottish referendum day.

"Stupid fucking English issue... I can't be arsed to vote... Won't affect me either way... What is the EU anyway? Silver lining: now I get to blame the English even more than usual".

So many people across the UK who would've voted Remain sat on their backsides that day. Muppets.

[Zizou]

The exact mental health condition which my sister has is treated in Scotland on the NHS. Lucky you; unlucky her. You have it better than we do. Yet the same victimology continues regardless. As do tropes about "anti-Scottish attitudes spread all through England now" after a month when... well, if England fans had gone into Scottish pubs, worn England shirts and and cheered on England, what would have been the reaction?

Every pub I watched games in had England fans cheering on England, some in football tops. Nothing happened. We aren't all the Begbie character from trainspotting.

Don't just make up shite when you have no idea please.

[Shteve]

Every pub I watched games in had England fans cheering on England, some in football tops. Nothing happened. We aren't all the Begbie character from trainspotting.

Don't just make up shite when you have no idea please.

Guaranteed if England weren't in the world cup and you were a jock down south in a pub with a jock tap on giving it large you'd have a queue of English cunts wanting to leather you, different mentality down there.

[Groot]

Wait a minute. You think the United Kingdom leaving the European Union "was a stupid fucking English issue"? So why is Scotland leaving as well then? Why, for that matter, is Northern Ireland? A "stupid fucking English issue" which, um, is about to create a hard border with all manner of dreadful consequences in Ireland.

If people couldn't be arsed to educate or inform themselves, that's on them. Someone wrote a page or two back that the turnout in Scotland was lower because the outcome was seen as a foregone conclusion. The polls were 50-50 for God's sake. They were much tighter than the polls immediately before Scottish referendum day.

"Stupid fucking English issue... I can't be arsed to vote... Won't affect me either way... What is the EU anyway? Silver lining: now I get to blame the English even more than usual".

So many people across the UK who would've voted Remain sat on their backsides that day. Muppets.

Its an English issue because it's predominantly the English who keep making all the anti EU rhetoric which came about from an anti immigrant mentality held throughout a lot of the country. The only reason it was done was Cameron appeasing certain demographics within England to ensure he won a general election, this was not about Scotland, Wales or Northern Ireland at all despite how much it affects us.

Here in Scotland there's not the same fervour or frothing at the mouth when immigration is mentioned, maybe because it doesn't affect us as much or maybe just because we're better people

Therefore when the vote came about it wasn't something that gripped Scotland as much as in England as it was considered a non issue, I believe people up here genuinely didn't see any way in which the Leave Vote would win so didn't prioritise the voting themselves.

Now personally all of the above should be plainly obvious but you've gone down the reacting to the anti-English sentiment of it which to me is you debating for debatings sake, on this subject there's bound to be some anti-English feelings because they're the stupid fucking turkeys that voted for Christmas can you not understand that?